December 22, 2010 5:55 am at 5:55 am #721145
I don’t know why he became flustered. I do what “they” tell me to do if it trust “them”. People who I trust told me to open the door for the girl when I started dating.
Now, it happens that it also makes sense to me, but I would listen to people I trusted even if I didn’t understand it, especially if there was no harm in it.December 22, 2010 6:18 am at 6:18 am #721146
postsemgirl: Exactly! If it were really a matter of “mentchlichkeit and courtesy”, that same guy would be opening his car door anytime he picked up a hitchhiker or gave his brother a ride to yeshsiva or whatever. He doesn’t do that. Just this goyish romantic chivalry drivel.December 22, 2010 7:08 am at 7:08 am #721147
postsemgirl, them could possibly the Rebbe for the boys who are dating, or their Mothers. Either one is a good source of info to go by.
As for So Right, WHICH rest of us? And why would you say that OOMIS is MO especially in an insulting way? Furthermore what does that have to do with having manners?December 22, 2010 7:14 am at 7:14 am #721148cshapiroMember
that last paragraph is so beautiful popa, it brought tears to my eyes!!December 22, 2010 8:05 am at 8:05 am #721149
What is your agenda here? You act as if I once insulted you.
Just spit it out already.December 22, 2010 9:14 am at 9:14 am #721150haifagirlParticipant
Frum girls (especially the frummer ones) don’t expect to have the door opened for them, and in fact are turned off by it.
Who gives you the right to call me not frum. I am certainly NOT turned off by it. And I am certainly frum.
I expect an apology.December 22, 2010 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #721151SJSinNYCMember
So right just called me frummer. I guess my opinion counts more now.December 22, 2010 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #721152Mayan_DvashParticipant
So Right, when you drop off a passenger, do you wait for them to go in the house or do you drive off as soon as the car door is closed? I am sure you don’t go out and (even attempt to) open the car door for them. So does your manners and mentchlichkeit extend only to “Kuhvid HaTaireh?”
;December 22, 2010 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #721153dunnoMember
You’re kidding, right?? The frummer ones don’t expect it?? Who are you calling frummer? Are BJJ girls and Brisk boys frum enough for you? Because I know many of those who most definitely want the door opened for them/open the door. This has NOTHING to do with MO. It has to do with being a mench.December 22, 2010 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #721154
If someone opens the car door for a BJJ girl, I don’t know how he ever got that date in the first place, but I do know he will be told he will be needing another date after that night! And if the date of a Brisker boy “expects it” (you were kidding, right? “expects” the door to be opened for them??), after that evening she will be hoping she is near the top of some other guy’s date waiting list.December 22, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #721155
The Brisker Rav used to open the carriage door when he picked up girls for dates.
Probably because they didn’t have BJJ yet.December 22, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #721156
so right, again, have you taken a poll? Do BJJ girls and Brisker boys come with a rule book?December 22, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #721157
Of course its right to wait for them to go in, and wait for them, and to help them with whatever they need. Somehow I think they don’t need help figuring out how to open the door or how to lift their fork in the restaurant. If the goyim would have a “minhug” of bowing to their date as soon as they met her, you would have all the same clowns here who believe in following chukas hagoyim yelling how important and “mentchlich” and “proper manners” it is to always give your date a bow when you see her.December 22, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #721158
The Brisker Rov had an arranged marriage. He didn’t date “girls”.December 22, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #721160dunnoMember
Do you have proof? Because I personally know these people. They definitely got second dates and weren’t dumped for opening the door. I still can’t believe how you think it’s a problem to do it.
LOLDecember 22, 2010 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #721162mamashtakahMember
The problem is that the OP tries to make something assur in halacha that just does not exist. I tell you what, so right, go ask your Rav what he thinks and let us know.December 22, 2010 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #721163
I don’t know the parameters of chukas hagoyim, but it does not cover everything they do.
Most of the daily activities we do are straight from the goyim.
What we wear. (And no, Polish nobles weren’t Jewish.)
What we eat. (Polish peasants weren’t Jewish.)
How we speak. (Bad German and bad English are both Goyish.)
Basic social norms. (We didn’t invent shaking hands.)
The tools we use. (knives, forks, shovels, guns)
So yes, if the custom was to bow to your date, I would probably do it, and I don’t think it would be chukas hagoyim.
Call me back when you destroy your engagement ring.December 22, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #721164
I did, and he said no.
It’s not “assur” per se for a guy to walk down Avenue J in his bathing suit either.December 22, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #721165cshapiroMember
i think this thread is getting old real fast….dude, if u dont want to open the door, then dont, but dont rant and rave about it in the cr cause nobody cares…
i dont think a girl will say no to a guy if he doesnt open the door for her, but middos are middos u cant fake it forever, u either gottem or u dont!!!December 22, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #721166WolfishMusingsParticipant
All I can say is that if any girl is willing to reject me because I held a door open for her, then I’m glad I didn’t marry that girl.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #721167yechezkel89Member
so right or so wrong,
it does not matter if they expect it or not, if you want to be perceived as a mentch you open the door. and secondly who are you to determine who is frumer than who, apparently sinas chinum doesn’t matter to youDecember 22, 2010 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #721168smartcookieMember
Why am I very confused between So Right and Trying my Best?
I keep thinking to myself, hey, these are two posters, although they seem to be the same.December 22, 2010 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #721169
Now that I’ve asked, can you ask your Rav and let us know his reponse (rather than your assumed response of his)?
Should the guy also hand her the fork in the restaurant, due to “middos”? Would it be bad middos if he doesn’t hand her the fork?December 22, 2010 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #721170
Take a look at the Rema YD 178:1.
Chukas Hagoyim only applies to things which are done for pritzus, like wearing red clothes; and things which make no sense, since we are concerned they are avoda zara.
Opening the door for someone is not done for pritzus, and we know why it is done. It is done because it is romantic. And no, romance is not pritzus.
So we can forget that line of “reasoning”.December 23, 2010 12:47 am at 12:47 am #721171twistedParticipant
How about tznius,kosher car free dating? See? You take the offending car door away so simply. Cars in general are a bad middah. Where I live, you cant get your daughter into, or have trouble keeping her in, a Bais Yaakov ,if you own a car.December 23, 2010 1:48 am at 1:48 am #721172
I disagree with you. Romance, and its chivalrous offshoot, are pritzus. But I’ll put that point aside for the moment and ask you what I asked cshapiro: Should the guy also hand her the fork in the restaurant, due to “middos”? Would it be bad middos if he doesn’t hand her the fork?
And if not, why is handing her the fork at the restaurant, any different than opening the door for her?December 23, 2010 2:10 am at 2:10 am #721173
Because handing her a fork is not considered appropriate behavior, and it would be considered bad manners.December 23, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #721174ulisisMember
twisted: Interesting. It’s definitely surprising that you find motorcycles to be more tznius.December 23, 2010 3:01 am at 3:01 am #721175
I have never said it is a middos issue. If it was considered normal to hand your date a fork, I would do it.
Look, even a Beshow is a breach of tznius to some extent. The argument here is to what extent we are supposed to breach tznius in the courting process. I don’t see why you can’t see this viewpoint- I can see yours.December 23, 2010 4:31 am at 4:31 am #721176hereswhatisayMember
why dont we work on FINDING A DATE before we worry about trivialities like opening up the door. PRIORITIES manDecember 23, 2010 4:48 am at 4:48 am #721177
as a girl in shiddichum i could say that if a boy would open a door for me it would b good bye charlie to him………i would find it extremely not app and not tznius on his part to do so………December 23, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #721178
Huh? Wouldn’t you ask someone before you dropped him for doing something totally normal?December 23, 2010 6:37 am at 6:37 am #721179yechezkel89Member
there is absolutely no tznius problem w/opening the car door on a date,so please don’t try to corrupt the halachot of tznis to promote your narrow-minded and totally incorrect hashkafaDecember 23, 2010 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #721181
would i ask s/o? of course i would,,,,,,and my parents would advise me not to continue with such a bochur. in the yeshivasha velt it is not an accepted practice.December 23, 2010 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #721182
bjjkid, who told you that? Would you be surprised to know that Rebbeim tell bochurim that it was the polite thing to do?December 23, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #721183
Did bjjkid ever post before or is this another screename for TMB and so right. I find it a little odd that just for this discussion we get a “BJJ” kid.December 23, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #721184Mayan_DvashParticipant
So Right, you seem to be deficient in your knowledge of the details of what “chukas hagoyim” are. It comes down to traits that are defining points of that particular nation. To use an example from Rav Yosef Viener, you wouldn’t say that ketchup on hamburgers are assur because of “chukas hagoyim” since that’s how Americans eat hamburgers! So before ANYONE continues to throw around the term “chukas hagoyim” learn the topic please!
I don’t see opening the car door as being anything more than manners. I do it for my parents, wife, did it for my grandparents YBL”CH and I’m sure others do the same.
What’s your thought on the Chosson giving the Kallah a rose by Badeken? how about during dancing when he sings (howls?) Aishes Chayil? Obviously these seem to be loaded questions. My Rav/Rosh Yeshiva drew the line at the rose.
;December 23, 2010 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #721186
aries2756, no i never did post before, i have been watching this thread for a while and now i have the courage to reply. and i have brothers in yeshiva who would NEVER open the car door for a girl on a date, and yes they have spoken to their rebbeim about this….it is s/t that defines who u r and shows what hashkafos u have…December 23, 2010 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #721187mikehall12382Member
Mayan_Dvash…what about spicy mustard 😉December 23, 2010 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #721189Proud HadarlingMember
bjjkid – as a girl no longer in shidduchim but who was for a while and is now married to a Brisker – I wouldn’t have said no for a boy opening the door or I wouldn’t be married now 🙂
Many yeshivish boys do open the door, many yeshivish boys don’t. Some are told specifically to, some are told specifically not.
So I also wouldn’t have said no if a boy didn’t the door because chances are he’s just following what he was told, and not being impolite.
(and yes I have friends from BJJ too, and they felt/feel the same way)December 23, 2010 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #721190
Well if that is what your parents advise, you might listen to them. Personally, I think you ought to ask some rabbinical figure first.
In any event, asking your parents is a far cry from your original contention that you would feel it is not tznius and drop the guy.
Really, there is absolutely nothing not tznius about it if he walks away and lets you close the door. I have no idea what is disgusting you about it.December 23, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #721191
I spoke to my cousin who did learn is Brisk and is now in Lakewood for the rest of his life, and without going into personal details, has excellent ultra-yeshivish yichus credentials.
He said many of the guys in his circles do open the door. He said some do not. I doubt even those would dump a guy over it.December 23, 2010 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #721192
Well if that is what your parents advise, you might listen to them; mihgt? there is an inyan of kibud av vaiem involved,…..and also i am who i am based a lot on my upbringing and i feel how i feel based alot on who my parents are and how they feel…its not even a discussion i would need to have with my parents to know how they feel b/c they live thier lives in a certain way and hence, i live mine in a similiar fashion, and NO, my father did NOT open the car door for my mohter…my brothers will NOT for their future kallah’s IY”H and my future chossen will NOT for me.December 23, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #721193mamashtakahMember
Now that I’ve asked, can you ask your Rav and let us know his reponse (rather than your assumed response of his)?
I did ask. He did not see any halachic problem with opening the door for a date, or a wife, or a daughter for that matter. He is of the strong opinion that opening the door is absolutely not chukat hagoyim. He added that he opens the car door for his wife. I asked him why HE does it, and his answer was “because it’s a nice thing to do.”December 23, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #721194
If your father, who is already married to your mother, does not open the car door for her, it has nothing to do with tznius. He just doesn’t open the car door for her. There are ways to open a car door even from the inside by leaning over the seat and pushing it open. He could have figured out like others have said to open it and keep walking, etc. So your father just doesn’t bother or never gave it a thought and it has nothing to do with hashkafa.
Be honest, did you actually have this discussion with your father?December 23, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #721195
A. There is no inyan of kibbud av regarding who you marry. You have no mitzva to listen even if they threaten to disown you.
B. Usually, when 20 year olds say “I don’t need to ask, I know the answer”, it is because they are afraid to ask. I have no idea why you would be afraid to ask here.
C. It is odd that you are sure your father would disapprove so strongly, when you cannot even state a reason why you think it is objectionable, beyond a vague “not tznius”.December 23, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #721196klachMember
Rav Yaakov kaminetzky opened the ar door for his second wifeDecember 23, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #721197whatrutalkingabtMember
“oomis, considering you are mo, your perspective is quite different than the rest of us
That is a disgusting thing to say. You should apologize to oomis.
opening a car door is not chukas hagoyim.
Would everyone stop this nonsense?
And why is anyone bothering to reply to BJJkid? Ill eat my shaitel if thats not a second username for so right or trying my best…
I know plenty of briskers (my own relatives) who opened the car for their date. Its mentchlich.December 23, 2010 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #721198
I agree with popa that the argument here is to what extent we are supposed to breach tznius in the courting process. I am stating that this, like Mayan’s Rosh Yeshiva’s example of giving a rose by the badeken, is crossing the line. And I am pleased to see in addition to popa being able to “see this viewpoint”, Proud Hadarling and bjjkid too experienced or witnessed proud Yidden knowing that they shouldn’t play the open the door romance.
I didn’t mean to imply this falls strictly in the category of chukas hagoyim. But tznius is a definite issue. Not everything is black and white. That doesn’t mean its okay. Like I said, a guy walking down the Avenue in a bathing suit is not either a strict black and white violation. And I don’t know where it is written that 6″ high red heels are either.December 23, 2010 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #721199klachMember
we are not supposed to “breach” tznius anything. And walking down a block in a bathing suit is a massive breach of tznius even to a man.
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