opposite gender therapists
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- This topic has 96 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 5 months ago by popa_bar_abba.
November 23, 2012 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #912307
I suppose most here are greater Talmedi Chachamin than Rav Dovid Cohen (and Im fairly sure with the blessing of other Gedolim as well) who allowed Ohel to have female therapists with male clientsNovember 23, 2012 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #912308icedMember
Shulchan Aruch does not differentiate between yichud with a unmarried woman than yichud with a married woman. And yichud with a married woman is significantly worse. It is forbidden to have yichud with a married woman even if the husband is in town.November 23, 2012 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #9123092scentsParticipant
..and this is after you said that you are not a posek.November 23, 2012 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #912310
2scents -“..and this is after you said that you are not a posek.”
I’m not a Poisek, but I can quote S’A.November 23, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #912311
iced -“Shulchan Aruch does not differentiate between yichud with a unmarried woman than yichud with a married woman. And yichud with a married woman is significantly worse. It is forbidden to have yichud with a married woman even if the husband is in town.”
Do you know who the words “Shulchan Aruch” is refering too? It’s the Mechaber or the Rema, not other Achronim. And the Mechaber does differentiate between husband in town or not. While there are Achronim who say this doesn’t always apply – they aren’t the “Shulchan Aruch”.
Before you use an opposite gender therapist a Shaila should be asked. To outright say it’s Ossur is ludicrous.November 25, 2012 1:19 am at 1:19 am #912312
Therapy is usually an intimate experience. You don’t want that kind of bond with someone you’re not going to marry.November 25, 2012 5:10 am at 5:10 am #912313
Health, the achronim assur all kinds of talking with the other gender even without yichud. Also, with some kinds of therapy there is negiya.November 25, 2012 9:24 am at 9:24 am #912314
torah613613torah -“Therapy is usually an intimate experience. You don’t want that kind of bond with someone you’re not going to marry.”
I don’t think you know what “an intimate experience” is. Therapy might develop a bond, but not that kind of a bond.
Do you think each session is like a date and you get closer to the other person in an intimate way? Your post is absurd.November 25, 2012 9:31 am at 9:31 am #912315
Loyal Jew -“Also, with some kinds of therapy there is negiya.”
I never heard of such a type of therapy, but if there is then obviously you can’t do it.
“Health, the achronim assur all kinds of talking with the other gender even without yichud.”
Name One Shitta that Assurs talking to a woman for a good reason!
I guess when s/o goes out on a date they must communicate with the other party in sign language or by writing notes or nowadays by texting/email.November 25, 2012 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #912316uneeqMember
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Why is so difficult for some to understand that in general a woman therapist is far from the best option? I will be so brash to say that anyone who was successfully “treated” by a therapist, enjoyed a good relationship with the therapist. Is that part of the issur of Maran, yichud or not? IMO, yes.
Can there be someone so corrupt that the positives of treatment by a woman will outweigh the negatives of being oiver on a Issur? Yes, but as a blanket rule, it is assur until permitted.November 25, 2012 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #912317popa_bar_abbaParticipant
torah613613torah is mostly correct.November 25, 2012 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #912318The little I knowParticipant
It is not absurd at all. Actually, there is abundant discussion in the early literature in psychoanalysis that the connections that develop between a client and therapist can be quite intense, and border on the romantic. It is the responsibility of the therapist to insure that these feelings are kept in check, and only permitted to continue so that the necessary therapy can work. Once the underlying issues have been resolved, this “transference” experience must be resolved to allow the client to achieve full emotional independence. Likewise, the therapist experiences feelings toward the client, called “counter-transference”. The therapist must also be very conscious of these feelings so that they do not move the therapist beyond appropriate boundaries. While psychoanalysis is almost obsolete as a therapeutic modality, many of the concepts are universally recognized as relevant regardless of the therapeutic approach.
If there are emotions that occur, additional steps must be taken to insure that boundaries are not compromised or challenged.
Let’s address halacha. Yichud is assur. That is halacha psukah. No one can challenge that, and excuses are irrelevant. The questions are how to guarantee that a therapy encounter keeps within halachic guidelines. One can safely avoid opposite gender client-therapist situations. But reality is that it is almost unavoidable, and there must be measures taken to prevent yichud – which is assur. Open doors, having arranged for someone to enter unannounced, etc.
Now let’s take another angle for those less inclined to recognize hilchos yichud. Play therapist. You see a client of the oposite gender. One day, after a session where the client was unhappy with the outcome of a session, he or she makes an accusation that you engaged in physical contact, and that he or she was abused by that. Your professionalism, your license, and your career are now on the line. Add to that the possibility of court action with legal costs (almost never covered by any form of insurance including malpractice insurance). Your working life is over. Yes, over. If you would have insured that hilchos yichud were upheld, the accusation would have little chance of being made or sticking, as it would not be believable. So for practical reasons, not just following halacha, yichud laws are critical.November 25, 2012 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #912319OnlyTheTruthParticipant
Health, This thread is getting more absurd by the post. I can tell from some posts on here that they never had a therapy session in their life. And they are stam hocking a cheinik.November 25, 2012 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #912320
Health – I have both education and experience in the psychological field. I have observed many times how young single frum girls invariably end up attracted to their male therapists. I don’t know if it works the other way with young men and female therapists, but I’ve seen it often enough to be very wary.November 25, 2012 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #912321ChulentMember
torah613613torah: In any of those cases where you’ve seen an attraction develop, did the relationship go further?November 25, 2012 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #912322jmj613Participant
Being able to open up to the other gender and being attracted are two diffrence things. I never had a problem with this and never will. And i mean frum female therapists. There was never a yichud problem. Its professional and nothing more. Since i dont live in same country like my therapist we usually skype. Besides when i go there.November 26, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #912323
uneeq -“Why is so difficult for some to understand that in general a woman therapist is far from the best option?”
Who doesn’t understand this? But sometimes it’s a necessary thing.
“I will be so brash to say that anyone who was successfully “treated” by a therapist, enjoyed a good relationship with the therapist.”
What’s brash about this?
“Is that part of the issur of Maran, yichud or not? IMO, yes.”
IMO, no – if she is married and so says the S’A. Ever hear of him?November 26, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #912324
PBA -“torah613613torah is mostly correct.”
Since you said so – it must be.
Gimme a break.November 26, 2012 2:21 am at 2:21 am #912325
torah613613torah -“Health – I have both education and experience in the psychological field. I have observed many times how young single frum girls invariably end up attracted to their male therapists. I don’t know if it works the other way with young men and female therapists, but I’ve seen it often enough to be very wary.”
I never suggested a single girl should see a male therapist. I said a married woman can. There might be cases where a girl might need a man, but a Shaila should be asked first.November 26, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #912326
We are forgetting that the idea of letting our girls learn to be therapists was so they could support their husbands in learning, not that they should be doing yichud and violating tznius with strange men r”l. Shame on those parents.November 27, 2012 1:06 am at 1:06 am #912328
Single women are the kal, married women are the chomer.November 27, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #912329
torah613613torah -“Single women are the kal, married women are the chomer.”
Not when it comes to Yichud and Baalah B’ir. Did you ever learn Hilchos Ishos in S’A?November 27, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #912330
Little that you know -“Let’s address halacha. Yichud is assur. That is halacha psukah. No one can challenge that”
The S’A says Yichud with a married woman is Mutter if her husband is in town.November 27, 2012 2:30 am at 2:30 am #912331farrocksMember
Health – Are you insinuating that it is assur for a single girl but muttar for an eishes ish, as per yichud?November 27, 2012 5:28 am at 5:28 am #912332
What heter can there be to do therapy with a person who you cannot say hello to in the street, who we should rather die than shake hands with?November 27, 2012 5:59 am at 5:59 am #912333frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Health made the point that a married woman whose husband is in town has different rules than other (read married w/ husband out of town, single, etc.) women.
While I am unsure about how different, and whether this applies to therapy-like situations, the general idea is (gasp) indisputably correct.
Any argument on this point should be from someone who knows about the “baalah b’ir” concept, not ignoramuses (like myself – I don’t know much more than what I just wrote).
As an aside, because a gedolah is bchezkas nidda, single girls should not be characterized as “the kal.”November 27, 2012 9:35 am at 9:35 am #912336
Loyal Jew -“What heter can there be to do therapy with a person who you cannot say hello to in the street, who we should rather die than shake hands with?”
What Issur is there in talking to a woman for a purpose?
News flash – There is none. Time to start learning Halacha.
And the therapist doesn’t have to shake the client’s hand – it ain’t part of therapy.November 27, 2012 9:46 am at 9:46 am #912337jmj613Participant
@loyal jew: the same is with doing any parkematya(business)with jew and non jews alike. Yet we do business with the opposite gender on daily basis. If there is no yichud problem or shaking hands involved i just cant see why therapy is diffrent than any other professional meeting. Just btw every therapist is supposed to have someone who he/she talks to in order to see if theres a problem coming upNovember 27, 2012 9:46 am at 9:46 am #912338elmos worldMember
I believe there is a difference between yichud when the husband is in the same town from their home and work correct me if I’m wrong.November 27, 2012 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #912339The little I knowParticipant
If her husband is in town (and they are NOT behind a locked door etc.), it is not yichud. There are plenty of halachos that discuss these details. All I said was that yichud is assur, and therapy does not render an issur to become heter. What precisely is your argument?November 27, 2012 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #912340pet peeveMember
often, its helpful to get the perspective that only the opposite gender can offer. each case is individual and needs to be considered from all angles,ask a shaila if needed for guidance, but there is what to be said for having an opposite perspective. can be very very helpful.November 27, 2012 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #912341
elmos world -“@HEALTH -I believe there is a difference between yichud when the husband is in the same town from their home and work correct me if I’m wrong.”
The S’A doesn’t differentiate, but the PT does. He says only in her house, but in s/o else’s house not because he doesn’t know where she is. And even if he does know and gave her permission for sure it’s Ossur.
Whether a workplace is like s/o else’s house or the workplace is like her house – ask your LOR. Whether we Pasken like this PT or not – ask your LOR.
(PT = Piskey Teshuva)November 27, 2012 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #912342
The little I know -“If her husband is in town (and they are NOT behind a locked door etc.), it is not yichud. There are plenty of halachos that discuss these details. All I said was that yichud is assur, and therapy does not render an issur to become heter. What precisely is your argument?”
How about looking up the S’A before Posting?
Again the S’A Doesn’t say it’s Ossur, as a matter of fact he says it’s Mutter. That’s right – the S’A says she can have Yichud with a man. He doesn’t differentiate if the door is locked or not.
The PT does make distinctions. See my above post.
So as far as I’m concerned – therapy isn’t Yichud in the first place for a married woman. But you should ask a Shaila like I just posted above anyway.
I posted this above -“To outright say it’s Ossur is ludicrous.”November 28, 2012 6:43 am at 6:43 am #912343
Health, the whole notion of letting people become therapists began so that inlaws wouldn’t have to provide kollel support. From there we’ve reached the point where we go to therapists as if they were doctors. Who says the heter that we use to go to a doctor applies to therapists at all? And of the opposite gender, when we’re trying desperately to enforce tznius?November 28, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #912344Matan1Participant
Loyal Jew, I really try hard not to post on this site but your comment is just so ridiculous that I cant help myself
The whole point of letting people become therapists was so there would be frum therapists to help frum people with their problems. Therapists are doctors. They go to school just like doctors. You might not know this, but there are mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, OCD and more that are rampent in the jewish community. We need frum therapists to help combat these problems, no different than we would need a doctor to treat a physical illness.December 11, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #912349
I guess its OK if the “therapist” is male and its a teenage girl.
Then he is an Ehricher YidDecember 11, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #912350WIYMember
Its only ok if the girl is under 18 the younger the better, and that he makes sure to lock the door with at least one lock. Also therapy sessions must be a minimum of 3 hours with an option for a 14 hour car ride to who knows where thrown in for good measure. You want to make sure she REALLY gets better.
Oh and therapy licenses are TOTALLY OPTIONAL.December 11, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #912351
Its interesting that many of the same people who are claiming this is assur are defending an individual who did just that…December 11, 2012 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #912352nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I find it moronic that a person who strongly defends opposite gender therapists on this thread writes eleswhere that he assumes a therapist is an abuser solely because he was with an opposite gender therapee.December 11, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #912353
The Rasha never claimed to be a therapistDecember 11, 2012 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #912354N.GMember
Anyone who was successfully “treated” by a therapist, enjoyed a good relationship with the therapist. It is not possible to fix your proplems with out a good relationship with your therapist.December 11, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #912355
Loyal Jew – I just thought of something. Let’s say you tried a male therapist and it didn’t work and you tried them all -do you think you should stay with your mental illness like depression or do you think you should go to a female therapist? It’s Ossur to be depressed so I don’t think s/o should remain this way.
I never advocated just picking up and going to an opposite gender therapist – my beef was with those who posted Ossur no matter what. If you need to go to an opposite gender therapist, by all means ask your Rov how to go about it. Nothing is clear cut -one way or the other.December 12, 2012 12:56 am at 12:56 am #912356squeakParticipant
“Loyal Jew – I just thought of something. Let’s say you tried a male therapist and it didn’t work and you tried them all -do you think you should stay with your mental illness”
We can all tell that he does prefer his mental illness.December 12, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #912357
Health, no one wants to be depressed but who paskened that it’s Ossur? Even if someone did, did he also say that we can throw aside tznius, yichud, negiya and geder arayot for the cause of not being depressed?December 12, 2012 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #912358
Deprssion is not “Feeling Sad” its very different than that, Its a very serious mental illness.
Its unfortunatly people who dont understand mental illness mock it and dont take it seriously.
If you had cancer would you only see a same gender doctor?
Why should people who suffer from mental illness be treated any differentlyDecember 12, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #912359
Loyal Jew -“Health, no one wants to be depressed but who paskened that it’s Ossur?”
I defintely seen that it’s Ossur to be in Atzvus. (M”itzva Gedolah Leiyos B’simcha Tomid.” You reminded me of the song.) Open up a “Gateway to Happiness”. He discusses this.
“Even if someone did, did he also say that we can throw aside tznius, yichud, negiya and geder arayot for the cause of not being depressed?”
Definitely some of these can be avoided. But like I said before, if for some reason they can’t, a Shaila to your Rov should proceed any therapy. You and others for some reason – have decided it’s Ossur no matter what and this is simply wrong.December 12, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #912360popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If you had cancer would you only see a same gender doctor?
Why should people who suffer from mental illness be treated any differently
Does the cure for cancer involve the doctor relating to you emotionally?
Look, I’m fine with you thinking that it is ok. But to say there is nothing to talk about and that it is exactly like having an opposite gender cashier at the bakery–that’s a bit much.
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