Order of Kibbudim?
- This topic has 39 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 12 months ago by shmerelberel.
July 11, 2016 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #617963
I’m struggling to figure out the proper order of the different kibbudim at a chassnah. What’s the order starting with the most kavod and down?July 11, 2016 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1159301popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You can’t change the order of the kibbudim. They go in order of the wedding.
sign the tnaim, read the tnaim, etc.July 11, 2016 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1159302
oooh this is fun.
So I think all agree siddur kidushin is top.
In my travels I have found that the Yeshivish oilam views eidei kiddushin as a higher kavod than the Berachos with Reading the Kesubah being the lowest.
(The idea being siddur kidushin requires one to be competent in “Inyanei gittin vekidushin” followed by Eidim which requires neemanos, followed bvy berachos which any Gadol could recite followed by Krias Hakesuba which, as R’ Shachter once put it “Can be read by a monkey”)
Chasidim However place Bracha achrita as the highest after siddur kiddushin with Krias Hakesuba up there. and Eidi kidushin the lowest.
Though i’d love to hear other’s inputJuly 11, 2016 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1159303
The Yeshivish seem to rate Krias HaKesuba second to Sidur Kidushin.July 11, 2016 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1159304popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I’ve always seen krias kesubah being highest after siddur kiddushin.July 11, 2016 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1159305apushatayidParticipant
People of stature do not care one way or the other.July 11, 2016 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1159306
popa_bar_abba: I’m sorry, but I worded my question poorly. I meant which ones accord different people the highest kavod.
apushatayid: I wasn’t asking whether or not people of stature care. Of course, I imagine they don’t either. But that doesn’t patur us from trying to find the best way to honor them regardless.July 11, 2016 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1159307
Ubiquitin: that’s great if there’s a difference between chassidim and others! that means one could technically give a chassid the bracha achrisa or krias ha’kesuba while making another rav an eid for kiddushin, thus according them both top kibbudim.July 11, 2016 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1159308
I would think that Eidus is far more important than Krias Hakesubah. After all, a monkey can do Krias HaKesubah. Eidei Kiddushin are what actually makes the marriage happen. Why wouldn’t that be most important?July 11, 2016 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1159309
Monkeys don’t read Aramaic very well.July 11, 2016 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1159310iacisrmmaParticipant
While being respectful of R’ Shachter’s opinion, Hamoin Am considers Krias Kesubah as the second most important and in a number of circles is read by the Rav of the shul where the Kallah’s family davens.
Sam2: I heard in the name of Rav Yitzchok Hutner ZATZAl that the chosson makes the marriage happen. Without his declaration of Harei At there is nothing to talk about.July 11, 2016 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1159311
Thats what I did at my Chasuna! Though perhaps I am wrong but the sense among the wedding I went to was like Sam said and I said earlier.
Unfortunatly more rabbanim showed up than expected so I gave one of them Krias hatenaim. He was visibly upset and stormed out immediately afterJuly 12, 2016 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1159312
I know a chasuna where there were so many big rabbonim, way more than any way to slice and dice the kibudim, that even some of the rabbonim were made before the chupa to be the flower girls!July 12, 2016 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1159313TheGoqParticipant
whoever gets first crack at the shmorg wins.July 12, 2016 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1159314
where they happy with that?
iacisrmma, while what you say is true, I dont think its quite practical to give away being the chasan as a kibbudJuly 12, 2016 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1159315
iacisrmma: Yes, the Chosson is necessary also. But so are the Eidim.July 12, 2016 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1159316
I’m pretty sure that you need a kallah too.
We had one by my chasunah.July 12, 2016 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1159317
ubiq, no. The same thing happened as by your chasuna with the Rov who you gave krias hatenaim to. The flower girls rabbonim stormed out as soon as all the flowers were done and looked very upset.July 12, 2016 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1159318
ubiq and DY: Why not? Why don’t we make a Shaliach from the Chassan and Kallah as the two biggest Kibbudim?July 12, 2016 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1159319
We don’t do kiddushin al y’dei shaliach nowadays, AFAIK.July 12, 2016 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1159320rwndk1Member
I have heard from a Rosh Yeshiva of a Yeshiva in Yerushalayim for overseas students who is often invited by former talmidim to be mesader kiddushin, that in Eretz Yisrael the second highest kibbud is bracha acharisa while in USA the second highest kibbud is krias hakesuba (this means the monkey has been given a great honor).
By the way if I am not mistaken, the context of Rav Shachter saying that the kesuba could be read by a monkey was when asked by feminists whether a woman could read the kesubah. His answer was that reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin and as long as it is read that is fine, even by a monkey. Therefore technically speaking a woman could read it, however I assume he would not go for it for other reasons. This does not mean that it is not an important kibud.
If I recall, a feminist looking to stir trouble concluded from there and publicized that Rav Shachter views women as monkeys.July 12, 2016 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1159321
popa_bar_abba: I’m sorry, but I worded my question poorly.
No, you didn’t, you just got popa-ed, which happens frequently here. You’ll get used to it and learn to ignore him.
BTW, welcome to the CR and mazel tov!July 12, 2016 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1159322
Thank you!July 13, 2016 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1159323iacisrmmaParticipant
There’s a famous story about a chasunah attended by both R’ Aharon Kotler ZATZAL and R’ Moshe Feinstein ZATZAL. R’ Aharon was called for Siddur Kiddushin, said I am honored to accept the kibbud and I am now mechabed the Poseik Hador R’ Moshe with Siddur Kiddushin and R’ Mosher was the Mesader Kiddushin.July 14, 2016 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1159324emanParticipant
I got married out of NY State. The State I got married in required 2 witnesses to sign the marriage license. I had 2 of my wife’s friends sign.July 15, 2016 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1159325147Participant
reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin The speech/sermon could be given between ??????? ???????? thereby also creating a good ????.July 15, 2016 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1159326DaMosheParticipant
147: I believe that the Yekkes give a speech at the chuppah for that reason.
At my wedding, I gave Krias HaKetubah as the 2nd “highest” honor. I’ve mentioned that I learned in Darchei Torah. I was in a smaller, half-day yeshiva while I was in college, which was also the time I got married. That Rosh Yeshiva was my mesader kiddushin, and R’ Bender shlita read the ketubah.
We almost had to switch things up – R’ Shteinman was in the US at the time I got married, and my father-in-law is close with him. There was a possibility that he was going to come to the wedding, and how can you not have him be the mesader kiddushin if he’s there? In the end he couldn’t make it, so things stayed as planned.July 15, 2016 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1159327YW Moderator-105Participant
Krias Kesubah used to be given to the Shammos of the shul. That changed after a famous story where there was a Chasuna with many Gedolim in attendance including R’Moshe Feinstein Z”l. He realized that there wouldnt be enough Kibudim to give to everyone & so he told the Baal Simcha to give him the Krias Kesubah. When people saw him have Krias Kesubah they just assumed that it was a big Kibbud, & so they started copying it.July 17, 2016 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1159328YW Moderator-42Moderator
Krias ksuba should be given to one who can read Aramaic fluently.
Or if you have an enemy who doesn’t read well and you think is a monkey and you want to embarrass him (or her) in public, you can give it to them.July 17, 2016 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1159329YW Moderator-42Moderator
I have heard that if you have a non-frum person such as a conservative Rabbi who “needs” a kibbud you should give him krias ksuba since it doesn’t have halachik meaning like the brachos and eidimJuly 18, 2016 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1159330Little FroggieParticipant
We just made a Chasuna B”H, here, in Eretz Yisroel. Still can’t believe we pulled this thing through… Chasadim Tovim constantly from Hakadish Boruch Hu, at every turn…
Our mechutanim requested the Kesuba reading and chose to give most of the Brachos to our side.. including the last one.July 18, 2016 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1159331
Mazel Tov! A sach nachas.July 18, 2016 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1159332DaMosheParticipant
Someone told me a great story about kibbudim.
This guy married a geyores. Her family was used to family being “part of the wedding”, like bridesmaids, groomsmen, etc. They didn’t understand how a Jewish wedding works, and they wanted to be participants.
The couple came up with a great idea. They told her family, “Did you ever see in movies how at a Jewish wedding, the bride and groom are lifted up in the air on their chairs? That’s something reserved for very close friends. We’d like to honor you with lifting the chairs!” Her family was thrilled with it!July 18, 2016 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1159333
DaMoshe, that’s brilliant. Similarly, and similar to what eman wrote, at a relative’s chasunah, two co-workers, one not Jewish and one a secular Jew, were “mechubad” with “eidei marriage certificate”.July 18, 2016 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1159334
It’s brilliant until they read this thread and get super-insulted.July 18, 2016 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1159335
Sam: As a result of your last point, do you think giving them the type of “kibudim” mentioned by DM and DY is a bad idea?July 19, 2016 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1159336
Joseph, he probably just thinks we shouldn’t publicize it.
I don’t think there’s what to be insulted about. Obviously, we can’t break halachah, and I think they understand that, yet we can still show respect by asking them to participate.July 19, 2016 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1159337WolfishMusingsParticipant
Whenever the President gives the State of the Union Address, there is one cabinet member who is dubbed the “Designated Survivor” and does not attend. This is done so that, should some disaster (God forbid) befall the Capitol, there will still be someone in the line of succession to assume the Presidency. So that person stays at home and watches the speech on TV (or does something else).
Very often, at weddings, I’m made the “Designated Survivor” and given the kibbud of staying at home.
The WolfJuly 19, 2016 3:35 am at 3:35 am #1159338
Joseph: I would explain it to them. “Jewish law necessitates XYZ, but we want you to be involved so we will give you honor W”. Don’t pretend it’s a big deal when it isn’t.June 9, 2020 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1869751shmerelberelParticipant
With all due respect to Rav Shachter, he should see the Sefer Nisuin K’Hilchasam 11:221 in the name of Rishonim that Krias Kesuba is done by chashuv Rabbonim. Not monkeys…
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