Order of Kibbudim?

Home Forums Simchas Order of Kibbudim?

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #617963

    yosefaleichem
    Participant

    I’m struggling to figure out the proper order of the different kibbudim at a chassnah. What’s the order starting with the most kavod and down?

    #1159301

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You can’t change the order of the kibbudim. They go in order of the wedding.

    sign the tnaim, read the tnaim, etc.

    #1159302

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    oooh this is fun.

    So I think all agree siddur kidushin is top.

    In my travels I have found that the Yeshivish oilam views eidei kiddushin as a higher kavod than the Berachos with Reading the Kesubah being the lowest.

    (The idea being siddur kidushin requires one to be competent in “Inyanei gittin vekidushin” followed by Eidim which requires neemanos, followed bvy berachos which any Gadol could recite followed by Krias Hakesuba which, as R’ Shachter once put it “Can be read by a monkey”)

    Chasidim However place Bracha achrita as the highest after siddur kiddushin with Krias Hakesuba up there. and Eidi kidushin the lowest.

    Though i’d love to hear other’s input

    #1159303

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Yeshivish seem to rate Krias HaKesuba second to Sidur Kidushin.

    #1159304

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’ve always seen krias kesubah being highest after siddur kiddushin.

    #1159305

    apushatayid
    Participant

    People of stature do not care one way or the other.

    #1159306

    yosefaleichem
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: I’m sorry, but I worded my question poorly. I meant which ones accord different people the highest kavod.

    apushatayid: I wasn’t asking whether or not people of stature care. Of course, I imagine they don’t either. But that doesn’t patur us from trying to find the best way to honor them regardless.

    #1159307

    yosefaleichem
    Participant

    Ubiquitin: that’s great if there’s a difference between chassidim and others! that means one could technically give a chassid the bracha achrisa or krias ha’kesuba while making another rav an eid for kiddushin, thus according them both top kibbudim.

    #1159308

    Sam2
    Participant

    I would think that Eidus is far more important than Krias Hakesubah. After all, a monkey can do Krias HaKesubah. Eidei Kiddushin are what actually makes the marriage happen. Why wouldn’t that be most important?

    #1159309

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Monkeys don’t read Aramaic very well.

    #1159310

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    While being respectful of R’ Shachter’s opinion, Hamoin Am considers Krias Kesubah as the second most important and in a number of circles is read by the Rav of the shul where the Kallah’s family davens.

    Sam2: I heard in the name of Rav Yitzchok Hutner ZATZAl that the chosson makes the marriage happen. Without his declaration of Harei At there is nothing to talk about.

    #1159311

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    yosef

    Thats what I did at my Chasuna! Though perhaps I am wrong but the sense among the wedding I went to was like Sam said and I said earlier.

    Unfortunatly more rabbanim showed up than expected so I gave one of them Krias hatenaim. He was visibly upset and stormed out immediately after

    #1159312

    Joseph
    Participant

    I know a chasuna where there were so many big rabbonim, way more than any way to slice and dice the kibudim, that even some of the rabbonim were made before the chupa to be the flower girls!

    #1159313

    TheGoq
    Participant

    whoever gets first crack at the shmorg wins.

    #1159314

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    where they happy with that?

    iacisrmma, while what you say is true, I dont think its quite practical to give away being the chasan as a kibbud

    #1159315

    Sam2
    Participant

    iacisrmma: Yes, the Chosson is necessary also. But so are the Eidim.

    #1159316

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m pretty sure that you need a kallah too.

    We had one by my chasunah.

    #1159317

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq, no. The same thing happened as by your chasuna with the Rov who you gave krias hatenaim to. The flower girls rabbonim stormed out as soon as all the flowers were done and looked very upset.

    #1159318

    Sam2
    Participant

    ubiq and DY: Why not? Why don’t we make a Shaliach from the Chassan and Kallah as the two biggest Kibbudim?

    #1159319

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We don’t do kiddushin al y’dei shaliach nowadays, AFAIK.

    #1159320

    rwndk1
    Member

    I have heard from a Rosh Yeshiva of a Yeshiva in Yerushalayim for overseas students who is often invited by former talmidim to be mesader kiddushin, that in Eretz Yisrael the second highest kibbud is bracha acharisa while in USA the second highest kibbud is krias hakesuba (this means the monkey has been given a great honor).

    By the way if I am not mistaken, the context of Rav Shachter saying that the kesuba could be read by a monkey was when asked by feminists whether a woman could read the kesubah. His answer was that reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin and as long as it is read that is fine, even by a monkey. Therefore technically speaking a woman could read it, however I assume he would not go for it for other reasons. This does not mean that it is not an important kibud.

    If I recall, a feminist looking to stir trouble concluded from there and publicized that Rav Shachter views women as monkeys.

    #1159321

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: I’m sorry, but I worded my question poorly.

    No, you didn’t, you just got popa-ed, which happens frequently here. You’ll get used to it and learn to ignore him.

    BTW, welcome to the CR and mazel tov!

    #1159322

    yosefaleichem
    Participant

    Thank you!

    #1159323

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    There’s a famous story about a chasunah attended by both R’ Aharon Kotler ZATZAL and R’ Moshe Feinstein ZATZAL. R’ Aharon was called for Siddur Kiddushin, said I am honored to accept the kibbud and I am now mechabed the Poseik Hador R’ Moshe with Siddur Kiddushin and R’ Mosher was the Mesader Kiddushin.

    #1159324

    eman
    Participant

    I got married out of NY State. The State I got married in required 2 witnesses to sign the marriage license. I had 2 of my wife’s friends sign.

    #1159325

    147
    Participant

    reading the kesubah has no halachic significance outside of creating a separation between birchos eirusin and nisuin The speech/sermon could be given between ??????? ???????? thereby also creating a good ????.

    #1159326

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    147: I believe that the Yekkes give a speech at the chuppah for that reason.

    At my wedding, I gave Krias HaKetubah as the 2nd “highest” honor. I’ve mentioned that I learned in Darchei Torah. I was in a smaller, half-day yeshiva while I was in college, which was also the time I got married. That Rosh Yeshiva was my mesader kiddushin, and R’ Bender shlita read the ketubah.

    We almost had to switch things up – R’ Shteinman was in the US at the time I got married, and my father-in-law is close with him. There was a possibility that he was going to come to the wedding, and how can you not have him be the mesader kiddushin if he’s there? In the end he couldn’t make it, so things stayed as planned.

    #1159327

    YW Moderator-105
    Participant

    Krias Kesubah used to be given to the Shammos of the shul. That changed after a famous story where there was a Chasuna with many Gedolim in attendance including R’Moshe Feinstein Z”l. He realized that there wouldnt be enough Kibudim to give to everyone & so he told the Baal Simcha to give him the Krias Kesubah. When people saw him have Krias Kesubah they just assumed that it was a big Kibbud, & so they started copying it.

    #1159328

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Krias ksuba should be given to one who can read Aramaic fluently.

    Or if you have an enemy who doesn’t read well and you think is a monkey and you want to embarrass him (or her) in public, you can give it to them.

    #1159329

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    I have heard that if you have a non-frum person such as a conservative Rabbi who “needs” a kibbud you should give him krias ksuba since it doesn’t have halachik meaning like the brachos and eidim

    #1159330

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    How interesting…

    We just made a Chasuna B”H, here, in Eretz Yisroel. Still can’t believe we pulled this thing through… Chasadim Tovim constantly from Hakadish Boruch Hu, at every turn…

    Our mechutanim requested the Kesuba reading and chose to give most of the Brachos to our side.. including the last one.

    #1159331

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mazel Tov! A sach nachas.

    #1159332

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Someone told me a great story about kibbudim.

    This guy married a geyores. Her family was used to family being “part of the wedding”, like bridesmaids, groomsmen, etc. They didn’t understand how a Jewish wedding works, and they wanted to be participants.

    The couple came up with a great idea. They told her family, “Did you ever see in movies how at a Jewish wedding, the bride and groom are lifted up in the air on their chairs? That’s something reserved for very close friends. We’d like to honor you with lifting the chairs!” Her family was thrilled with it!

    #1159333

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaMoshe, that’s brilliant. Similarly, and similar to what eman wrote, at a relative’s chasunah, two co-workers, one not Jewish and one a secular Jew, were “mechubad” with “eidei marriage certificate”.

    #1159334

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s brilliant until they read this thread and get super-insulted.

    #1159335

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam: As a result of your last point, do you think giving them the type of “kibudim” mentioned by DM and DY is a bad idea?

    #1159336

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph, he probably just thinks we shouldn’t publicize it.

    I don’t think there’s what to be insulted about. Obviously, we can’t break halachah, and I think they understand that, yet we can still show respect by asking them to participate.

    #1159337

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Whenever the President gives the State of the Union Address, there is one cabinet member who is dubbed the “Designated Survivor” and does not attend. This is done so that, should some disaster (God forbid) befall the Capitol, there will still be someone in the line of succession to assume the Presidency. So that person stays at home and watches the speech on TV (or does something else).

    Very often, at weddings, I’m made the “Designated Survivor” and given the kibbud of staying at home.

    The Wolf

    #1159338

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: I would explain it to them. “Jewish law necessitates XYZ, but we want you to be involved so we will give you honor W”. Don’t pretend it’s a big deal when it isn’t.

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending