Orthopraxy

Unless you want to resort to an Orwell like surveillance level in every frum community, this would be impossible to ascertain.

What would you do? Hire private investigators to dig through peoples lives and put all of your evidence before some newly established beis din? Or just put a gun to every Rav and mechanechs head and have them declare their loyalty to Hashem?

By the way, Orthoprax people are “off the derech” in private, they don’t recruit and in no way rock the boat. So before you start a witch hunt, realize that there are bigger fish to fry in the frum world.

could the op please write in English and explain what is the problem?

The whole notion of Orthopraxy exists only because modern orthodoxy has chosen to cater to simpletons. This is true for several reasons.

1. Nothing, most especially ideology, can ever be black and white. And yet, frum ideology is most often presented as black and white because it has the convenient benefit of allowing for certainty among simple people, who are the only ones who can accept it.

2. In addition, this leads to a chain reaction – because simple people are the only ones who can accept it, they become the ones who determine its application. This effect led to things like the cherem on “The Making of a Godol”. The “askanim” who agitated for a ban were simpletons. Rabbanim (e.g. R’ Zelig Epstein) who signed on to it conceded that it was appropriate for sophisticated readers but were concerned that simpletons would read it. Thus, the book was banned and people who could have benefited from it lost out in order to protect simpletons.

3. The current definition of Orthoprax is also only possible in a black and white world. It’s conceivable that someone believes in literally no aspect of frum ideology and practices frumkeit despite that. But I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the so-called Orthoprax actually believe in significant portions of frum ideology. It is hard to conceive of or justify someone remaining frum despite believing that it was terrible for his children, or that there is literally no God at all. Rather, people who disbelieve to some random point on the frum ideology continuum are considered Orthoprax despite believing significant portions of the Torah and probably understanding all of it at a deeper level.

4. All frum people could benefit from a bit of Orthopraxy, in the sense that part of Orthodox Jewish belief is that we don’t understand or need to understand everything. In keeping with what I’ve written above, as compared to simple “belief”, it’s probably more meaningful to shake a lulav despite actively not believing than it is to shake a lulav because you think you believe.

Belief certainly matters in Judaism, and several mitzvos require us to believe certain things. If we don’t believe we should strive to believe, and pray to increase our emunah.

However, the fact is that not everyone is perfect in their emunah, and it is good that we don’t police this. It is much better for an Orthoprax person to be in the frum community, as long as they are not attempting to spread doubt and kefirah to others.

As for teachers, we should ascertain if they are doing a good job. If they are making the children less (rather than more) enthusiastic about Yiddishkeit then they should be replaced, regardless of what their personal beliefs are. That is, let’s focus on results.

@Wallflower

It isn’t indicative of anything! See in every generation, there have always been skeptics and doubters and people who find value in the community that being frum offers while not connecting with the underlying dogma.

Only difference now is that the internet has made people a little bit braver to talk about these things. And then along comes AMI magazine and publishes a textbook example of “yellow journalisim” about a charedi posek who doesn’t believe. All of the sudden, everyone starts seeing orthoprax people everywhere like they are some sort of vermin that need to be eradicated.

I said before, these people dont recruit. They keep up apperances to keep families together or be allowed to have a relationship with their children, or even to just keep their social life alive because they enjoy the sense of community.

The existance of orthoprax people is indicitive of nothing because there will always be individuals that do not buy into the program. Emunah declarations and ad hoc beis dins will solve nothing.

Oh, it is definitely indicative of something.

If someone is an intellectual skeptic, let them ask their question and get an answer. Or let their concerns be honestly addressed. Yeah, orthoprax people need to be eradicated. They need to be turned into orthodox people!

The case Ami described was unusual. Of the orthoprax population, which is difficult to define, I think most have always been orthoprax, rather than having their emunah rotted away as adults. They were robot yeshiva boys and robot Bais Yaakov girls who grew up to be robot Jews.

There will always be individuals who do not buy into the program? Why are we not selling it better? How does a kid with questions, or even an emotional disconnect, get through his 15+ years in yeshiva undetected and unanswered?

Our schools say that they welcome questions. I have a feeling many orthopraxes did not bother asking, because saying it and meaning it are two different things.

Anyone who doesn’t believe in sniffing out and invalidating Orthoprax people is themselves Orthoprax.

???? ??????? ?????? ?????? – ??? ??????

our actions affect our thoughts as much as our thought affect our actions.

also, maybe im a little confused, but if students dont know whats really going on in their teachers minds, then does it really matter whats going on in there?

can someone give a summary of the mishpacha article?

Also unless there is positive reason to believe something is true there is no need waste your time on it. If you or your kids are in a school where you have doubts about the faculty switch schools. If you have this problem with everyone then maybe you are the one with the problem.

But there’s no need to expect everyone to know everything.

Only a velt’s mishugana would think he knows everything.

Anonymous1000- Does it make more sense for a person who believes to break halacha in private or for a non-believer to keep halacha in public?

secular Frummy:

believer may break it out of desire and a non believer to fit in both are understandable

As explained to me by someone who is familiar with this subject Orthopraxy means a person who practices orthodox Judaism (that includes both in public and private). However they do not believe in it.

I personally don’t know of any such people. (unless it is just a temporary step to going off the derech and they are still scared to break halacha. But after slowly doing more aveiros that sense of wrongdoing can go away.) So I don’t see why someone who really doesn’t believe wont even break halacha in practice (ie not orthopraxy)

“Orthopraxy is a term derived from modern Greek ?????????? (orthopraxia) meaning “correct action/activity” or an emphasis on conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace etc.[1][2][3] This contrasts with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief, and ritualism, the use of rituals.[“

-wikipedia

now if by orthopraxy you mean someone who keeps halacha in public but really doesn’t keep shabbos for example then he isn’t even practicing orthodoxy (ie orthopraxy)