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- This topic has 24 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 5 months ago by Redleg.
October 23, 2013 4:38 am at 4:38 am #610974
and it relevance to the frum community. Basically, who’s teaching us, kids and how can we make sure the Rabbeim, Magidei Shiur are frum? (Based on a recent article in the Mishpacha)October 23, 2013 10:51 am at 10:51 am #981969
Unless you want to resort to an Orwell like surveillance level in every frum community, this would be impossible to ascertain.
What would you do? Hire private investigators to dig through peoples lives and put all of your evidence before some newly established beis din? Or just put a gun to every Rav and mechanechs head and have them declare their loyalty to Hashem?
By the way, Orthoprax people are “off the derech” in private, they don’t recruit and in no way rock the boat. So before you start a witch hunt, realize that there are bigger fish to fry in the frum world.October 23, 2013 11:53 am at 11:53 am #981970
Action is all that matters. Belief is not nearly as important as it is in other monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity).
As long as you keep up with the motions, you will be accepted in the community. There is no incentive to believe.October 23, 2013 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #981971heretohelpMember
could the op please write in English and explain what is the problem?October 23, 2013 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #981972nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I am glad to see the resident experts have responded to the query.October 23, 2013 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #981973Veltz MeshugenerMember
The whole notion of Orthopraxy exists only because modern orthodoxy has chosen to cater to simpletons. This is true for several reasons.
1. Nothing, most especially ideology, can ever be black and white. And yet, frum ideology is most often presented as black and white because it has the convenient benefit of allowing for certainty among simple people, who are the only ones who can accept it.
2. In addition, this leads to a chain reaction – because simple people are the only ones who can accept it, they become the ones who determine its application. This effect led to things like the cherem on “The Making of a Godol”. The “askanim” who agitated for a ban were simpletons. Rabbanim (e.g. R’ Zelig Epstein) who signed on to it conceded that it was appropriate for sophisticated readers but were concerned that simpletons would read it. Thus, the book was banned and people who could have benefited from it lost out in order to protect simpletons.
3. The current definition of Orthoprax is also only possible in a black and white world. It’s conceivable that someone believes in literally no aspect of frum ideology and practices frumkeit despite that. But I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the so-called Orthoprax actually believe in significant portions of frum ideology. It is hard to conceive of or justify someone remaining frum despite believing that it was terrible for his children, or that there is literally no God at all. Rather, people who disbelieve to some random point on the frum ideology continuum are considered Orthoprax despite believing significant portions of the Torah and probably understanding all of it at a deeper level.
4. All frum people could benefit from a bit of Orthopraxy, in the sense that part of Orthodox Jewish belief is that we don’t understand or need to understand everything. In keeping with what I’ve written above, as compared to simple “belief”, it’s probably more meaningful to shake a lulav despite actively not believing than it is to shake a lulav because you think you believe.October 23, 2013 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #981974wallflowerParticipant
There are bigger fish to fry? This is one of the biggest fish there is! It’s symptomatic of so many other problems.October 23, 2013 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #981975yytzParticipant
Belief certainly matters in Judaism, and several mitzvos require us to believe certain things. If we don’t believe we should strive to believe, and pray to increase our emunah.
However, the fact is that not everyone is perfect in their emunah, and it is good that we don’t police this. It is much better for an Orthoprax person to be in the frum community, as long as they are not attempting to spread doubt and kefirah to others.
As for teachers, we should ascertain if they are doing a good job. If they are making the children less (rather than more) enthusiastic about Yiddishkeit then they should be replaced, regardless of what their personal beliefs are. That is, let’s focus on results.October 23, 2013 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #981976
The OP (most likely a troll) is saying that insidious orthopraxy types are going to subliminally deter people from frumkeit. And that we as a frum community should go on some sort of crusade against community leaders and teachers suspected of being “Orthoprax”.
Oh no! you called me orthoprax!! I think I’ll go cry about it.
All I was doing was saying that without some techniques made famous by Toreqemada, you can never really acertain someones emunah. Seems to me that would be a major turn off for people. The whole process of needing to get tourtured physically in order to take a low paying job teaching unruly 11 year olds.October 23, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #981977
It isn’t indicative of anything! See in every generation, there have always been skeptics and doubters and people who find value in the community that being frum offers while not connecting with the underlying dogma.
Only difference now is that the internet has made people a little bit braver to talk about these things. And then along comes AMI magazine and publishes a textbook example of “yellow journalisim” about a charedi posek who doesn’t believe. All of the sudden, everyone starts seeing orthoprax people everywhere like they are some sort of vermin that need to be eradicated.
I said before, these people dont recruit. They keep up apperances to keep families together or be allowed to have a relationship with their children, or even to just keep their social life alive because they enjoy the sense of community.
The existance of orthoprax people is indicitive of nothing because there will always be individuals that do not buy into the program. Emunah declarations and ad hoc beis dins will solve nothing.October 23, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #981978zahavasdadParticipant
There are Orthroprax Chassidim (even Satmar) and Yeshivish (In Lakewood) , It is not only in the MO communityOctober 23, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #981979wallflowerParticipant
Oh, it is definitely indicative of something.
If someone is an intellectual skeptic, let them ask their question and get an answer. Or let their concerns be honestly addressed. Yeah, orthoprax people need to be eradicated. They need to be turned into orthodox people!
The case Ami described was unusual. Of the orthoprax population, which is difficult to define, I think most have always been orthoprax, rather than having their emunah rotted away as adults. They were robot yeshiva boys and robot Bais Yaakov girls who grew up to be robot Jews.
There will always be individuals who do not buy into the program? Why are we not selling it better? How does a kid with questions, or even an emotional disconnect, get through his 15+ years in yeshiva undetected and unanswered?
Our schools say that they welcome questions. I have a feeling many orthopraxes did not bother asking, because saying it and meaning it are two different things.October 23, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #981980
nishtdayngesheft- Thank you for the compliment. One of my areas of expertise is orthopraxy.October 23, 2013 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #981981Veltz MeshugenerMember
Anyone who doesn’t believe in sniffing out and invalidating Orthoprax people is themselves Orthoprax.October 23, 2013 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #981982gavra_at_workParticipant
Thought-Criminals must be transfered to the Ministry of Love, where they will remember how they have loved, love and will always love Big Brother.
Down with Goldstein!!October 23, 2013 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #981983eyefortruthMember
???? ??????? ?????? ?????? – ??? ??????
our actions affect our thoughts as much as our thought affect our actions.
also, maybe im a little confused, but if students dont know whats really going on in their teachers minds, then does it really matter whats going on in there?October 23, 2013 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #981985writersoulParticipant
GAW: You rock.
wallflower: “Our schools say that they welcome questions. I have a feeling many orthopraxes did not bother asking, because saying it and meaning it are two different things.” Hah. Not true. To be honest, I go to a school where they really, genuinely do welcome questions. If anyone’s figured out what school I go to, you should know that- it’s 100% true. But that doesn’t mean that the teacher always has an answer. That’s NOT a fault on the part of the teacher- teachers don’t always have the answers and I can accept that. (There was a spinoff from baiis yakov maidel’s thread a while back that discussed this.) Perhaps they don’t know, perhaps they don’t want to get into it (that one I respect a bit less but I can live with it).
But honestly, there are orthoprax people who really do want to know. (Though I agree with VM and I honestly don’t think that orthopraxy is a thing. Uninspired Jews, perhaps, but not orthopraxy.)October 23, 2013 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #981986
can someone give a summary of the mishpacha article?
Also unless there is positive reason to believe something is true there is no need waste your time on it. If you or your kids are in a school where you have doubts about the faculty switch schools. If you have this problem with everyone then maybe you are the one with the problem.October 23, 2013 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #981987writersoulParticipant
Anonymous: Is that in response to me? If it is, then plenty of teachers do answer questions well (and I’m not talking about myself, anyway, I’m just a mucho mild example). But there’s no need to expect everyone to know everything.October 23, 2013 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #981988☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
But there’s no need to expect everyone to know everything.
Only a velt’s mishugana would think he knows everything.October 23, 2013 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #981989
writersoul: it wasn’t meant as a response to you. If I understand correctly orthopraxy is people who keep mitzvos but don’t believe in it. I don’t think that makes sense because the people I know who don’t believe, at least in private will not keep mitzvos. But yes there are people with questions if you want answers one good place could be rabbis or rebitzens who are involved in kiruv because they deal with this things all the time. Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb has many good shiurm about beliefOctober 24, 2013 12:21 am at 12:21 am #981990
Anonymous1000- Does it make more sense for a person who believes to break halacha in private or for a non-believer to keep halacha in public?October 24, 2013 2:47 am at 2:47 am #981991October 24, 2013 2:53 am at 2:53 am #981992
believer may break it out of desire and a non believer to fit in both are understandable
As explained to me by someone who is familiar with this subject Orthopraxy means a person who practices orthodox Judaism (that includes both in public and private). However they do not believe in it.
I personally don’t know of any such people. (unless it is just a temporary step to going off the derech and they are still scared to break halacha. But after slowly doing more aveiros that sense of wrongdoing can go away.) So I don’t see why someone who really doesn’t believe wont even break halacha in practice (ie not orthopraxy)
“Orthopraxy is a term derived from modern Greek ?????????? (orthopraxia) meaning “correct action/activity” or an emphasis on conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace etc. This contrasts with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief, and ritualism, the use of rituals.[“
now if by orthopraxy you mean someone who keeps halacha in public but really doesn’t keep shabbos for example then he isn’t even practicing orthodoxy (ie orthopraxy)October 24, 2013 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #981993RedlegParticipant
As was previously mentioned, Orthopraxy isn’t a new phenomenon. No one can tell what’s in a person’s mind and heart. If a fellow is shomer mitzvos, is koveiya itim, is oseik b’tzorchei tzibbur, looks and acts as a Jew, what he believes is nisht dayneh gescheft (to coin a phrase). That’s between him and G-d.
P.S. Read “The Yeshiva” by Chaim Grade about this issue in prewar Lithuania. Original in Yiddish but English translation is available on Amazon.
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