November 16, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #907298
Following G-d’s orders, as described in the Torah, is mandatory even it is not “pleasurable”. It is mandatory even if it is “painful”.
Ice cold and callous.
You go frum and don’t give a dang that you are killing your parents?
Wow.November 16, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #907299
So tell me, whose sins are worse?
It is worse to sin in public than to sin in private.November 16, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #907300
Have you considered trying a less restrictive form of orthodoxy. The wag the finger element that occurs on this website and in some communities doesnt exist everywhere.
I do agree that some forms of orthoxy have insulated themselves so much that it becomes impossible to see other views. And many do find pleasure in Chumaras, many do not and are really turned off by them.November 16, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #907301
Science and History dont prove or disprove anything. I happen to have a university degree in both from a normal secular university (Not even Touro or YU) and Ive taken all those courses (OK I didnt take Biology because I hated it in High School.
Again its unfortunate that some here disparage all secular studies, it then becomes “the forbidden fruit” and becomes more mysterious than it really isNovember 16, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #907302
ouch. wasn’t this supposed to be a peaceful discussion? could everyone like chill? seriously, it’s disgusting…we are all people, at least have respect for that….November 17, 2012 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #907306
@Groisnachas: I have a considerable amount to say with regards to parenting. However, at this time, I am unable to do so, simply because I believe that it would give away entirely too much as to who I am, and where I was raised. I am unwilling to do that at this time. What I will say is this.
Jeffrey Dahmer, a noted psychopath, whose very behaviors were so immoral that he himself was killed in prison, had parents that loved and cared for him in spite of his “character flaws”. So did David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), amongst others.
One thing stands out, though publicly decrying their son’s behavior, Dahmer’s father and step mother also publicly stated that while they did not in any way shape or form condone their son’s behavior, he was, and always would be their son (not step son, not killer or pervert, but “son”, and for that reason, they would always love him and support him in any way they could without supporting his criminal actions.
With all that being said, how many children and adults that go frei have parents and families that can say the same things to and about them, simply because they have chosen to not keep shabbat or kosher?
That, in of itself, should be a lesson in parenting.November 18, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #907307
The moment I put on pants for the first time, in spite of the fact that my kashrut and shabbat observance were impeccable, I became trash in the eyes of the community and my family. Less “strict” or another form wouldn’t have mattered. A step away is a step away. And again, I’m quite content where I am. It doesn’t matter how many times I’m questioned, that’s not going to change.November 18, 2012 12:51 am at 12:51 am #907308
While science and history do not disprove anything, it does cast serious doubt on many parts of the Torah. Perhaps this is due to the background that I came from, where the Torah is considered the absolute with no room for any other considerations.
A great example of that attitude is the response from my brother when I asked him how he might reconcile any scientific evidence disproving the mabul. His response was “It’s irrelevant to me what science says. If the Torah says it’s true, then it’s true.” (Note I’m not trying to say the Mabul never happened, just what his response was to the possibility.)
I’m not a scientist, nor am I any kind of talmuch chacham. However, I do not believe that it is possible to reconcile science with the Torah in many cases.
While this wasn’t a major factor of why I’m no longer religious, it did play a role in why I was willing to walk away from a religion that held nothing but memories of pain and guilt for me.November 18, 2012 12:56 am at 12:56 am #907309
As silly as it may seem, I felt the same way the first time I (as a guy) put on blue jeans as you did wearing pants.November 18, 2012 1:07 am at 1:07 am #907310
I don’t understand why PuhLease is tolerated here when she posts on Shabbos, as she did again now and as I noted on the first page of this thread when she did it last week as well.November 18, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #907311
PuhLease, we all came from the same place, have bumps along the way, and we’ll all end up in the same place, whether we wear skirts or pants or both.
What is your feeling about the current situation in Israel, where our relatives’ lives there are in danger? Did your change of dress go hand in hand with any shift in loyalties to and concern for your relatives there?
Either way, take care of yourself, stay healthy and love your kids.
I have no fear for any OTD people.
Chut Hameshulash Lo Bimhaira Yenatek.November 18, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #907312
always runs with scissors fastParticipant
This post caught my eye, but I have to share…I have been “frum as a baalas teshuva for over 10 years and am fed up. sometimes i wish i had where to run away to. But i burned all my bridges. nothing seems to have meaning to me anymore. I am dis illusioned by the reality of life. I sometimes fantasize of going off the derech. I dont want to, but its hard.
We are all products of our environments and therefore whatever what was comfortable and familiar to me is now disowned, distasteful and disallowed. The fact is I dont feel so spiritual sayign asher yotzar in loshen ha kodesh. maybe i ought to say my own prayer of thanks which i write.
maybe i’m sick of trying to fit in to the cookie mold, the cookie cutter. I lost myself somwhere back there.
Well anyways, whatever. thats life.
a gitta vochNovember 18, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #907313
PuhLease is right. Even though I am not religious anymore, my parents still love me.
@iced, I am proud to say that I am not killing my parents. Parents that are incapable of being happy for their child regardless of the choices he or she as made, are selfish parents.November 18, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #907314
I guess it is possible that some parents are capable of being happy for their child irregardless that the “choice” he or she made is to be an alcoholic and druggie.November 18, 2012 6:02 am at 6:02 am #907316
How is being otd similar to being an alcoholic or druggie?November 18, 2012 6:44 am at 6:44 am #907317November 18, 2012 6:58 am at 6:58 am #907319
@groisnachas: There is only one thing I miss about being religious. My siblings.
That is it. I can make my own food, my own shabbat, I can sing z’mirot, or whatever. I have never felt comfortable in shule, or in the community, regardless of where I have lived, and much like Runs With Scissors, with whom I can very much empathize, I am disillusioned, disappointed, disgusted, pick any of the multitude of “D” or other lettered adjectives that one chooses with frum judaism. Not because of God, but because of the people.
The difference, is that I wanted to walk away for years and years, and when I finally made the ultimate decision to do so, I was so glad that I did. I have never in my life been more at peace. In terms of the situation in Israel, I may not consider myself religious anymore. That does not change the fact that I still very much consider myself a Jew. Born a Jew, Die a Jew. Period. And, my feelings regarding Israel have not changed. They are what they were 20 years ago, and 20 years before that. I love my children. They are the love and light of my life. However, should they come to me and state that they too have decided to not be religious, I would not love them any less, nor would I discourage them. Their choices are theirs and theirs alone. Never would I do to them what I see being done to other children all across the world. A child is a gift, and should be treated like one.
@iced: I am pretty sure that one cannot equate being irreligious with being an alcoholic or a drug addict. I know, unfortunately, quite a number of “frum, black hat, yeshivish” individuals who are alcoholics, abusive, pedophiles, and drug addicts. And yet, they are welcomed into the loving arms of the frum community because they act and dress the part. I have only three words for that. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.November 18, 2012 7:24 am at 7:24 am #907321
A post from today (above) and a post from last week were both made by you on Shabbos. This site should not be facilitating your being mechallel shabbos bfarhesya right here on a frum site.November 18, 2012 7:25 am at 7:25 am #907322
My point was demonstrating the hypocricy of your demanding that parents lovingly accept the choice of their child, G-d forbid, going otd.
You wouldn’t suggest a parent lovingly accept their child’s choice to become an alcholoic or druggie.November 18, 2012 7:42 am at 7:42 am #907323
When did this conversation become about drugs and alcohol? Neither I nor PuhLease do either (I can’t speak for Jakbre) so it is a topic for another discussion.
In any case, most of the druggies and alcoholics I know are still frum. I’m sure their parents are very proud.
I’m curious what your story is. Why did you decide to become non-religious?November 18, 2012 9:54 am at 9:54 am #907325
To PuhLease and others in this type of situation:
While I can’t imagine the pain and suffering you must have gone through, and which must have helped drive you to make the decision you did, as I believe you indicated earlier, I still do not understand how you can be “at peace” where you are if that involves any sort of intentional neglect of halacha.
How does one who was religious and understands laws of this system, even if deprived of its beauty, consider one’s self to legitimately be “not religious any more” as if such a thing were possible?
I understand if a teen or even an adult rebels out of pain, CH”V, and I do sympathize even if I believe there has to be a better way than dropping one’s faith practices. But even in this case they still understand that their abandonment of mitzvos is simply their rebellion, not an alternate valid path. Please explain your thoughts on this matter.
While nobody is perfect, regardless of observance label, there is, of course, a difference between sinning while understanding the wrongness of the sin versus sinning and not caring.
You wrote that you submitted a post on Shabbos and it was not accepted. But surely you know that this is halachicly forbidden, not some overbearing hashkafa that is of no meaning to you. So how can you be at peace with doing something you know clearly is forbidden? Please explain, if you don’t mind.
Finally, regardless of the Jews in your prior circle, surely there is at least the possibility that there are observant Jews who do not do anything you find morally objectionable. Besides that, you’re free to observe without this behavior you dislike. So why go beyond that and throw away religious observance when you could observe “morally” rather than completely discard? Please explain.
Regarding your statement “but to use religion to justify terrible behavior, makes Jews as bad as the Moslems who blow people up in the name of Allah”, this is absolutely wrong, and I think your own biases are radically skewing your perspective.
No public Jewish Orthodox figure would dare to use religion to “justify terrible behavior”. They might rationalize that what they do is not so bad, or otherwise permitted. Or else, if you are referring to molesters, then they might wrongly allow their compassion on the alleged molester to overcome what they should instead be doing.
But for you to compare that, even if they are wrong and/or biased and issue a terribly incorrect halachic ruling, again, to compare that to these savages and their barbarity of indiscriminate homicide bombing, is wrong. Period.
May Hashem redeem us all and bring us to the time when Hashem’s Truth is revealed for all people to see.November 18, 2012 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #907326
By some of the comments here Its no wonder many are leaving.November 18, 2012 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #907328
@Herr Himmell: I’ve already explained myself. If you are having difficuly with your comprehension, I suggest you get yourself tested. I will not respond to your poorly disguised attempts to pretend to act like an appropriate “frum” person again. Especially since I believe that you and Vochindik are one and the same. People with multiple personality disorders need to be heavily medicated, have you thought about seeing a psychiatrist?November 18, 2012 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #907329
Pulease, I asked you about less restrictive forms of judaism, not to make you religious again, but you seem to want to be part of the jewish community and all the people you seem to know are the ones with the harsh view of it.
I cant help you with your family, I wish I could, but I cant. But maybe you can connect to people with similar views to yourself. People who want connection to some form of judaism in their lives but dont want the harsh view.
While almost everyone here will disagree with me, They want all or nothng and when this is the choice many times its nothing. its isnt the worst thing to pick and choose sometimes. You can decide where you want to go in life. You can meet women who got to shul on Shabbos and wear Jeans on Sunday. You can meet people with the same interests as you who are not quick to wag the finger that you will “Burn forever” (Which is NOT a jewish idea anyway).
People here have condemed UJA and certain Rabbis. While I do not agree with many of the positions they have taken, at least they keep people connected. When someone is on the fringe becoming a Chasid or Yeshivish is not an option.
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