Other Uses For Tallesim

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  • #592655

    i wanted to post this right after the yomim tovim, because that’s when i witnessed what i am about to describe. i got a little busy, but the issue still stands. there i was, on yom tov, in the ezras nashim sitting in my seat by the mechitza, which is a one way glass (in our shul, women are upstairs on a balcony sort of thing, and men are downstairs. women can see men, men cannot see women)and i saw something that really disturbed me. a man wearing a tallis took off his glasses and began to wipe them with his tallis. there was a full tissue box right next to him, we were not in middle of shmoneh esrei (he could have moved closer to the tissue box if he really couldn’t reach). i tried to be dan l’kaf z’chus by thinking that he was concentrating so hard on his davening that he didn’t even notice the tissue box, but obviously he stopped to wipe his glasses, at that point,he could have looked for a tissue box.

    i think a tallis should be treated as kadosh, not for wiping glasses, or tables or so on. men, treat ur tallesim with the respect they deserve, they are a part of your connection to H-Shem.

    Thanks

    #701980

    smartcookie
    Member

    100% right. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is in Halacha.

    #701981

    zaidy78
    Member

    Why waste a precious tissue to wipe your glasses when you can use your tallis? Many regular guys will wipe their glasses with their ties or shirts. Its not in anyway a bizoyon. Wasting a precious tissue maybe a issur deoraisa of bal tashchis…

    #701982

    Moq
    Member

    I certainly would be dan lkav zechus; R’ Elyashiv was asked this exact question in Kovetz Teshuvos Chelek Aleph and writes that it is not a bizayon, based on Zaidy’s reasoning – that one would do it with one’s shirt or other garment. So yes, it is indeed in Halacha. 🙂

    #701983

    WIY
    Member

    Zaidy78

    I hope you aren’t serious.

    HashemLovesMe

    The Mishna Berura in Siman 21 Sif Katan 12 says that according to some authorities it is forbidden to use the cloth of a Talis Gadol for a mundane purpose. So it is better not to but if one wiped their glasses with the Talis there are some shittos who hold its ok.

    #701984

    minyan gal
    Member

    If he was so engrossed in his davening he may not even have realized that he used his tallis to clean his glasses. While I don’t think that this is the right thing to do, there are far worse things that people do.

    #701985

    Perhaps a limmud zchus The SA writes 21:2 ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????

    Who says that wiping eyeglasses is a ?????? ?????? ???

    See MB who brings the Pri Magid who Assessors recycling talisos to

    pants. Is it equivalent?? Ask your Rav before condemning

    #701986

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    HLM: Someone that does that is very much an exception. Few men would c”v do something like that.

    #701987

    Sacrilege
    Member

    This is why I stay home 😀

    #701988

    zaidy78, (i’m not sure if you were serious or not) i don’t exactly equate a shirt and tie with a tallis. a tallis is something you put on when you daven- i think that it probably has more kedusha than a shirt. also, is a tissue more precious than a tallis? that’s what a tissue is for- to clean things.

    moq, like i said, i don’t equate it with “one’s shirt or other garment”

    minyan gal- yes, i know there are far worse things! this just bothered me when i saw it, it just didn’t look nice.

    trying to be helpful- i’m not condemning- just trying to tell ppl it doesn’t really seem like the nicest thing to do. i did try to be dan l’kaf zchus. also, can you please explain the first part of ur post? i don’t understand it. thanks!

    thanks WIY!

    #701989

    WIY
    Member

    HLM

    You are welcome!

    #701990

    yosr
    Member

    we must first understand why w even have a Tallit.

    It used to be in ancient times that we did the Mitzvah of Tzitzit by simply tying 4 strings to each of the four corners of our regular cloths. Then the Romans forbid us from attaching strings to the four corners of our cloths. So we invented special mini tzitzit that went under out cloths similar to what we use today (Tallit Katan). However it was understood that this tallit katan was more of a zecher to the mitzvah than actually fulfilling it (yes technically there is a minimum size for a garment…).

    However the mitzvah states that you must place tzitzit on your “garments” and a garment envelopes you and protects you from the elements. So we came up with a solution we made up the Tallit Gadol so that at least a few minutes a day I take a big four cornered garment with tzitzit attached and fulfill the mitzvah in its ultimate form.

    This is why we make the bracha “l’hitatev b tzitzit” (to be enveloped by the tzitzit) on the Tallit gadol, while on the tallit katan we sat “al mitzvat tzitzit” (about or regarding the mitzvah of tzitzit) as it is only a reminder.

    The point is that tzitzit were meant to be part of our everyday dress, which you get dirty and so on and the tallit Gadol is nothing to be elevated to such a point that I would not use it to clean my glasses

    #701991

    Moq
    Member

    HashemLoveMe-

    R’ Elyashiv disagrees; he says that the level of Kavod for a Tallis is like a shirt. He says that it is not a bizayon to the tallis. It is indeed permissible. (Kovetz Teshuvos, Chelek Aleph)

    #701992

    Sorry I am better at cyber-gymnastics, click and paste, search etc than writing and organizing thought.

    #701993

    zaidy78
    Member

    HashemLovesMe, I am totally serious. A tallis (the garment) is just a four cornered piece of cloth. Four cornered garments require the fringes (tzitzes). There is no kedusha to the tallis. We all where them (or the smaller version… tzitzes) when we go to the bathroom. A tallis can be thrown out (wrapped nicely) after its use. There is no k’dusha in it. It is just used for the miztva. (Tashmishei Mitzva vs. Tashmishei Kedusha). There is discusions in halacha about wearing a towel over your head needing tzitzes or a blanket in bed. But noone would say not to clean your glasses with you beach towel.

    #701994
    #701995

    WIY
    Member

    Zaidy78

    The Talis Gadol is different than talis Katon (tzitzis). The Talis Gadol is a beged that is specifically for prayer only. It is used for Mitzvah and one should not go into the bathroom wearing a TG.

    #701996

    I just came back from B”HM where I noshed a bit. ???? ?????? ???? ?”? PAGE ??”? brings quite a few Poskim who at best are “not too keen” about using a T”G for cleaning glasses. He brings that the Steipler did use during Davening as it was ???? ????

    HLM please accept my apologies for being a bit strong. Your sensitivity for ?????? ???? is commendable

    #701997

    real-brisker
    Member

    HLM – Why is it not nice wiping your glasses in a talis? Is the talis getting dirty from it? You are just merely wiping it clean! Its not like you ae blowing your nose in the talis! I dont see why for any reason it should be assur, its not at all a bizayon. And besides the Minchas Chinuch states there is no commandment to wear tzitis, the only commandment is a garment which is 4 cornered should have tzitis on it. The beged/garment is just a tufal to the iker mitzvah.

    #701998

    Ben Torah
    Participant

    I once observed someone blow (or wipe) his nose into his talis.

    #702000

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Why is everyone just ignoring Moq? If I would say something which remotely implies I am disagreeing with R’ Elyashiv I would get jumped, and here when he’s quoting R’ Eiyashiv his post is simply ignored. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that this case he is being meikil? Just wondering…

    #702001

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I have to admit that I sometimes use my tallis for a function other than tefillah.

    Specifically, when I go to davening on Shabbos mornings and the temperature is a bit nippy, I use it to keep warm. I suppose it is possible to wear a coat on top of it (to show that I’m not using it for warmth), but then I’d be too hot.

    So, which level of hell am I going to for this profane use of a tallis?

    The Wolf

    #702002

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LOL Wolf. Welcome back.

    #702003

    yitayningwut

    Just wondering… disagreeing with R’ Elyashiv = quoting ???

    WolfishMusings

    The keywords are ?????? ?????? Talitos are not ???? ?????

    #702004

    real-brisker
    Member

    yitayningwut – It because there is something you may not be familiar with which is called a Machlokes; a machlokes is where not all poskim agree to the same point. I actulaly heard a shmuz from a adom godal – that it is the gresta kavod for tzitis to wear them while playing any sports etc. that get you sweated up!

    #702005

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The keywords are ?????? ??????

    So they are… I failed to notice that.

    I guess I’m safe on that count (for what it’s worth).

    The Wolf

    #702006

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    real-brisker-

    Thank you for enlightening me… I think you missed my point.

    #702007

    bpt
    Participant

    Other than davening, the only other thing I used my talis for is to cover my kids during dichuning. The next planned use (aside from davening) is as a wrap, achar meah v’esrim

    #702008

    real-brisker
    Member

    yitayningwut – Can you please explain me which point I missed?

    #702009

    real-brisker wrote I actulaly heard a shmuz from a adom godal – that it is the gresta kavod for tzitis to wear them while playing any sports etc. that get you sweated up I doubt the adom godal was referring to T”G

    T”G & T”K are 2 Dinim<em/> See Aruch Hashilchon


    ???? ?? ???? ? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????

    You remind of an expression my Melamed used often ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????

    #702010

    Bptotty You mean to say that you did not wrap your boys in a Talis the first time you took theim to Cheder? As I remember from another thread you are not yet of Mechutan age. Just wait you may yet have Safardi &/or Yekkish Mechutanim who will want the Cjoson/Kallah covered by a Talis, and as R’ Yaakov ZT”L said “My minhag is to do what the Mechtanim want.”

    #702011

    bpt
    Participant

    “wrap your boys in a Talis the first time you took theim to Cheder”

    Thank you for pointing that out. It was many years ago, and I forgot.

    Truth be told, I’m just getting used to having an “empty tallis” by dichuning. I guess its a sign of aging 🙁

    #702012

    real-brisker
    Member

    sbh – yes it was reffering to tzitis which in other words are known as tallis katan. On your comment to bptotty – It (usually as far as im concerened) isnt the father that goes under the talis by the chupa it is the son or daughter, so i think he still qouted what he uses his talis for correcty.

    #702013

    bpt
    Participant

    And as far as going along with my mechutonim, I see myself as being a real pleasure to deal with, as the only one that can suffer from my obstinance would be my sons.

    Besides, by the time we get the happy couple down the aisle, we’ll have both made so many concessions, it’l be hard to tell who’s who.

    (Halivey, b’korov. I’d even consider going white-shirt only in the Fall / Winter, if it comes down to that. But lets see :()

    #702014

    “wrap your boys in a Talis the first time you took them to Cheder” reminded me.

    A neighbor,an older childless man,who did not remember this Minhag (a litvak, anybody knows Minhag Lita?) was so shocked seeing a child’s feet sticking out of Talis, that 2 decades later when I introduced myself as a former neighbor in BP he did not remember me but that sight did not leave him.

    #702015

    Moq
    Member

    Takeh, the Yekkis still do a chuppas tallis (it’s a beautiful minhag) – that is , have the chosson kallah were the tallis together, or merely use it as a chuppah? ????? ????? ?? ???? (Rus)

    #702016

    yosr
    Member

    People really do not get it!

    Tzitzit was meant to be put on your everyday cloths! The creation of our “tallit Gadol” was to allow for fulfilling the mitzvah on a litchatchilah level. It only came into existence as a response to the Roman decry that we could no longer attach tzitzit to our garments!

    Please see my response above

    #702017

    yaff80
    Participant

    This should be the biggest avaira that any of us do!

    Moshiach may come sooner!!!!!!

    #702018

    wow, thanks everyone for all ur answers! i’ve heard things here i never have before! all really interesting!

    trying to be helpful, really no need to apologize, but it’s accepted anyway!

    #702019

    May one clean his glasses with the Tallit he wears during prayer? The Mishna Berura (21:12) cites two views as to whether one may use a Tallit that still has Tzitzit strings for a purpose other than the Mitzva. (Of course, all views would forbid using the garment for a denigrating purpose, such as cleaning one’s body.) He then cites the Peri Megadim as clarifying that according to all views, the Tallit designated for use during Tefila may not be used for any other purpose; therefore, one may not clean his glasses with the Tallit worn during the prayer service.

    May one clean his glasses with his Tallit Katan?

    Yes; the Mishna Berura (21:12) writes that one may use his Tallit Katan for any purpose that is not denigrating.

    SOURCE: http://www.mishnaberura.com thanks to apushatayid for leading to this resource

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