- This topic has 21 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What are the differences, benefits and comparisons between Otzar HaCochma, HebrewBooks and Bar-Ilan Responsa, as well as any other similar or competing product?
Are there any hashkafic issues or concerns regarding using any of them?
hebrewbooks.com must be downloaded. I have an external disk called Otzros Hatorah. The searching facility is wonderful for Bar Ilan but not so good for the others. Otzar Hachochma is very expensive. I bought the Otzros Hatorah paying in $10 monthly installments. The Bar Ilan is a copy of seforim and not the original, so each commentary is separate but it has references. Sefaria has english ttanslation might have hashkafic questions. There is DBS which is similar to Bar Ilan but has no teshuvas. The Bar Ilan plus includes the Encylopedia Talmudis.
3 completely different products.
Otzar Hachochma – Over 100,000 seforim, including most new and current seforim. Basically a complete Otzar Haseforim at your fingertips. They are in their original tzuras hadaf, with a very decent search engine. Expensive, though it is on sale during Shavua HaSefer.
Bar Ilan – Only about 2000 seforim. All digital (not tzuras hadaf), but fully searchable and hyperlinked. Perfect for research and cross referencing. Primary focus on on Halacha, with most Tshuva Seforim included. Since its digital, easy to cut and paste. Catered to a different market than Otzar Hachochma. Cheapr than Otzar Hachochma, and there are occasional good deals.
HebrewBooks – Poor man’s Otzar Hachochma. Mostly older prints and the search engine is pretty weak. Free.
As mentioned above, very different products.
Aside from what’s already mentioned, Bar Ilan’s library includes Encyclopedia Talmudit, tries to use the most accurate version of all its texts, and includes important texts by Rabbonim and poskim from the Dati Leumi world, including journal articles, teshuvos, etc.
Those texts do not appear in the “Bnei Torah” version of Otzar, which deletes works from outside the charedi world.
If you would like to learn about Shevi’is, for instance, and don’t want to be exposed to the works that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach considered the most essential ever written on that topic, quoting them on nearly every page of his own work (Rav Kook’s seforim on Shevi’is), then Otzar haChochma Bnei Torah Edition is for you.
If you would like to see what Rav Shlomo Zalman thought was essential, then you’ll need Bar Ilan.As the Rambam said when he compiled his יד. You don’t need any other ספרים.I have used hebrewbooks.org and it is quite an עבודת יד. Until that time if you wanted a sefer from the 16th or 17th century you had to buy a xerox copy in short supply by Biegeleisen.Now you can print what you want. Additionally prime Litvishe Yeshivas print heftlech of Meforshim like never before.
Otzros Hatorah does not have as many seforim and search facility is not as good.
We”re talking about very different products.
1. Otzar Hachachma – contains over 100K scanned books, with search capability. Each year there is a new version with more thousands of morebooks. This includes options for all the books from certain publishers, which one must pay extra for. The main three publishers are Oz VeHadar (includes Mesivta, but no printing on anything), Mossad Harav Kook & Machon Yerushalayim (I think no printing). They have a new really nice product called HaMefaresh which gives all known commentaries, discussions, tshuvot related to every sentence found in Gemara, Rashi & Tosafot. IMHO, this gives really high added value.
There are two possibilities of using this –
1) purchasing the product. I priced this with the Book Week discount + the above three publishers + HaMefaresh (you cannot purchase HaMefaresh without Otzar HaHachma) – came out to over 10000 shekels (I am zocheh to live in Eretz Yisrael and pay with the local legal tender). The yearly upgrades are also around 1500 shekel/ per year. Unless one will use this basically 6 days a week, I personally see no economic justification for purchasing this.
2) Use the online version – which one purchases rights for a day, weeek, month, year or 10 separate days. The cost for a day is 20 shekel. Access to books from the above publishers cost a few shekel per day. HaMefaresh 15 shekel/day (you don’t need to also pay for the basic 20 shekel). You don’t pay for yearly upgrades, they come automatically online.
I”ll just add an anecdote, when my 6th grader asked a really good question on the Gemara he learned, paying 15 shekel and finding with him several answers with the Mefaresh was a pretty good Geshmake.Bar-Ilan – honestly, an excellent product. The price point is pretty reasonable. There is a rich set of Seforim + Shut”im + Encyclopedia Talmudit with footnotes (costs more). The search engine is probably the best in the business. The seforim are shown in text mode, not as the original page. This has advantages – allows for clean copy-paste, allows for quick find within the text (think of looking for a certain sub-topic in a long shu”t). This also has disadvantages – I find it difficult to “learn” without the original look and feel. There are yearly updates, more books. Updating once every few years is pretty reasonable.
HebrewBooks – Free online repository of about 100K scanned books. There used to be a hard drive version for sale ($100), but from what I can tell this is no longer available. There are lots of old books, but also a reasonable amount of current or near current books. There are two sites, the regular one and a beta site, with site differences. The regular site has Shas Nehardia, which can be downloaded. The beta site has a pretty good Tur & Shulchan Aruch (no download). Each book can be read online or downloaded as a PDF. From my experience, one can find some real gems on HebrewBooks and its all free.
Sefaria – Useful for online copy+paste and has some parts have a translation. The translations have plenty of mistakes – but it can still be useful when you need it.
UJM: If you think there might be hashkafic issues with religious texts that are data-entered by a university or the wider selection that appears on Sefaria, then you should get Otzar haCHochma Bnei Torah edition.
Its specifically tailored towards those who want their seforim censored.
And you should also stay off the internet and not read any blogs.
from wikipedia:
The first complete edition of the Babylonian Talmud was printed in Venice by Daniel Bomberg 1520–23[68][69][70][71] with the support of Pope Leo X.[72][73][74][75] In addition to the Mishnah and Gemara, Bomberg’s edition contained the commentaries of Rashi and Tosafot. Almost all printings since Bomberg have followed the same pagination. Bomberg’s edition was considered relatively free of censorship.[76]
I invite all to my place of work, Bar Ilan University , to meet the people who work on the Shu”t project and discuss hashkafa. I don’t think they support the Pope, but one can always be suspicious.
“relatively free of censorship”
….ever hear of chironos hashas?
I believe later editions introduced more censorship. There’s an interesting question: as we now have more access to earlier manuscripts that go beyond corrections on the margins, do we learn with the correct academic version or with the version that generations accepted and commented on?
Also, re irony of bomberg edition: he had Jews working on the project, so you can’t say that Shas layout is entirely non Jewish
A better example would be chapter numeration in tanach.UJM: Yes, Otzar haChochma has many more seforim, but their “Bnei Torah” edition specifically excludes works from certain authors, generally those that are Religious Zionist or academic. That’s what differentiates it and that’s why it’s called the “Bnei Torah” edition — it censors out works that do not match yeshivishe expectations.
As I wrote above,
‘As mentioned above, very different products.
Aside from what’s already mentioned, Bar Ilan’s library includes Encyclopedia Talmudit, tries to use the most accurate version of all its texts, and includes important texts by Rabbonim and poskim from the Dati Leumi world, including journal articles, teshuvos, etc.
Those texts do not appear in the “Bnei Torah” version of Otzar, which deletes works from outside the charedi world.
If you would like to learn about Shevi’is, for instance, and don’t want to be exposed to the works that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach considered the most essential ever written on that topic, quoting them on nearly every page of his own work (Rav Kook’s seforim on Shevi’is), then Otzar haChochma Bnei Torah Edition is for you.
If you would like to see what Rav Shlomo Zalman learned and what he thought was essential, then you’ll need Bar Ilan.”UJM: I have Bar Ilan and am very happy with it. I appreciate having the Encyclopedia Talmudit, the scope and accuracy of their texts, having the texts in text format, and the fantastic search engine.
I would love to also have Otzar haChochma, either the Bnei Torah or the regular edition. If you’d like to purchase either one for me, I’d be thrilled.
However, you were the one in the marketplace and were asking what the differences were and I told you. The Bnei Torah edition removes 1,500 seforim that appear in the regular edition and the criterion for exclusion is hashkafic.
As I said, I’d be happy with either one.
I have Otzar Hachochma, and it includes the Encylop. To have it included in Bar Ilan, you have to pay a little extra (200 NIS) and to have it in OH you have to pay 400 (it is then visible in צורת הדף).
So the ET should not be much of an issue when deciding BI versus OH.
I got the Oz vHodor package, the Mechon Yerusholayim, the Mossad RK, and the ET.
If i had to choose, i’d go for OH, for a number of reasons, but I am eternally grateful to the fellow who encouraged me to get BI, that was already AFTER I already had OH. I use both all the time, ie, i simultaneously and alternate both about 10 hours a day – no exaggeration. I have both programs running, and for some things BI has advantages.
It’s far quicker to get to a particular mareh mokom in BI, type in a few characters, and it get you to the exact place instantly. Although OH’s OCR is very good, copying text is more accurate and quicker in BI. You can also search more accurately in BI (try searching in Rabbeinu Channanel in Perek Beis of a given masechta, in OH. Impossible. It will search all the text in the volume, and give the results for all the Gemoro, Rashi, Tosafos etc.
I could go on and on but am probably wasting my time. Does somebody here appreciate what i’m saying?
Bottom line – if you can afford it, go for OH. If you can’t, get BI. If you can get both, then grab them both. You’ll thank me one day!
BTW, these days both can be installed directly into your hard drive, so you dont need to lug it around, and you don’t have to worry about ruining your USB port.Otzer comes on a hardrive,which a representative of otzer manually updates it,whereas as Hebrew books comes online…
ujm, Look at dbs123 dot com.
Do not order online but call the US distributer mentioned there.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.