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HaKatan -“But that does not make it correct to lump such governments in the same GENERAL and OVERALL category as Sedom. It is also a gross lack of Hakaras HaTov to do so.”
I see no problem with mentioning our Dor being similar to S’dom or the Dor Hambul.
There may be differences, but they have something very much in common. And whatever good things they do, even though you should have Hakoras Hatov for these, by no means cover up the evil that is occurring.
Unfortunately a lot of Jews only care whether our gov. vis -a- vis politicians will be giving them money. They only care how much gov. programs they personally will be receiving or their Yeshivos. This should not be the first priority when judging up a candidate for public office!
“The OP wrote 2 points which I thought were very off and incorrect. I didn’t “put words in your mouth”, but rather explained to you what I was defending. Again:
OP wrote: “we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. Again, we are absolutely not in the same league, sport, etc. as the evil barbarians of that wicked dor.”
You forgot to quote the beginning of the OP’s sentence:
“Imma613 -So I was thinking this morning that in some ways we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul. They were committing toeiva and many states are legalizing toeiva marriage.”
The OP wrote -“that in some ways”, but you left that out and focused on only -“we may be just as bad as the dor hamabul”. By leaving that out you change the meaning of the OP’s sentence.
This is commonly done by people who work in Media -they omit things on purpose. Now why would you do such a thing here? Do you have an agenda? Did you or people you know vote for Cuomo and the like?
The more you try to defend yourself -the bigger hole you’re digging yourself into!
Regarding abortion and toeiva and lots more, I agree that secular society is getting worse. But that is them, not us. And there was no Klal Yisrael, the Am Kadosh, in the Dor HaMabul. Further, lihavdil, the Catholics are still very much against abortion and even forced the President to backtrack on a contraception bill.
But most importantly, **we** still know it’s wrong, so I still think your OP should have been worded very differently. And as this disaster of “gay marriage”, CH”V, unfolds over the next two decades or so, even many goyim will realize what a travesty this is, particularly because the children in these homes will have been deprived a healthy normal childhood.
Regarding copying music, I don’t know where you get this idea that “people copy cd’s so much” and that therefore “the Jewish music industry is struggling mightily and may fold altogether.”
Of the millions of Jews who consume this music, how many do you know? And do you have access to Aderet’s books that you are so sure that CD copying has that effect, that they can’t profit from a CD?
(My understanding is that it so happens that the CDs are really a marketing expense to get the singer to be “known” so they can be invited to perform at concerts, where the real money in that industry is. That doesn’t mean people should copy, but I strongly disagree that many people do so.)
You’re really accusing a large portion of Klal Yisrael of going against halacha, and you really have absolutely no idea if you are right because you don’t know that many people. So I think that assertion, in particular, is uncalled for and should be retracted.
I assume you meant well in trying to remind people that copying CDs takes away money from the producers, et al. But baselessly accusing “so many people” is not the right way to do that.
Health, please take off the tin-foil cap. I have no agenda here other than defending Klal Yisrael from an inadvertent attack by someone who I’m sure meant well. Please see my post after yours for further clarification. And I’ve agreed with you many times that toeiva marriage should not be legalized, so you’re the one projecting (obviously false) things on to me. Please, stick to the facts.
Regarding the wording of the OP, the “in some ways” portion is irrelevant to the issues at hand. I still maintain the post was just as off and incorrect even with those words, though, as I said, I believe she meant well and those words do further clarify that she meant well.
I think I’ve made my point already, but I’ll do so again regarding the toeiva travesty: **We** are not representative of society’s moral deficiencies and society does not represent our status as the Am Segulah MiKal HaAmim. So just because certain states have passed this abominable legislation, this DOES NOT REFLECT ON US nor does it damn society as a whole either, despite these few terrible blots on the overall fabric of society.
As I mentioned earlier, even the secular news media picked up that Jews voted out a fellow Jew in favor of a non-Jew (a Catholic) because this Jewish politician had the nerve to not only vote for this toeiva but to defend it that he had to vote for it AS A JEW.
So **we** do NOT “cover up the evil”.
Besides, there are plenty of states still, B”H, that have not introduced such terrible legislation. Whereas by Noach, the Torah clearly tells us “Ki Mal’ah HaAretz Chamas…” It was universal across the land.
So as I said, there is no comparison between this generation and that of the Mabul, despite a minority of states considering/passing toeiva bills, R”L.
The copying music comparison to the GREAT AND MALICIOUS EVIL of Sedom is even more incorrect, as I mentioned above. Please see my previous post.
akuperma
maybe cats and dogs dont, But Penguins do.
Also there was never a “Greek Empire” the only time the Greeks controlled the world was for about 15 years under a MACEDONIAN (never confuse a Greek with a Macedonian) Alexander the Great.
The Roman Empire lasted between 600-1400 years (Depending when you count the fall of the Empire from the fall of the City of Rome or the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul))
HaKatan -“nor does it damn society as a whole either, despite these few terrible blots on the overall fabric of society.
Besides, there are plenty of states still, B”H, that have not introduced such terrible legislation. Whereas by Noach, the Torah clearly tells us “Ki Mal’ah HaAretz Chamas…” It was universal across the land.
So as I said, there is no comparison between this generation and that of the Mabul, despite a minority of states considering/passing toeiva bills, R”L.”
I disagree with this part of your post. Either deliberately or not, but you are looking at the Matziv here with rose colored glasses. The fact that we aren’t exactly right now like S’dom or the Dor Hamabul – doesn’t mean this isn’t the direction we are headed. Anybody who doesn’t have their head in the sand can see which direction the wind is blowing. It might be a few states only right now, but very soon the Feds are going to push this on all of us. The Circuit Court in California right now has ruled that there has to be Toeiva marriage there. (Against the will of the people there.) There is a good possibility the Supreme Court will take this up and I can see them pushing this on e/o, in spite of the fact that they are a “Conservative” court. They can easily find that Toeiva marriage is required by the “Constitution”!
We as Frum Jews have to join the Few Goyim in this country that still care about this and only support candidates that will Not allow legalization of Toeiva marriage and revoke the legislation that is already there.
To me it’s mind boggling that there is a “Frum” guy in Albany and he supported Toeiva marriage and he is supported by a “Frum” community -to be in office!
In one of my hats that I wear -I’m a fire safety consultant. But you don’t have to be an expert to know that almost all fires can be put out when they are small. When they get big -it’s not that easy anymore -sometimes whatever is burning is destroyed.
The time is now to put out this fire, before it spreads!
If people from the Religious Right (Jew or Goy) continue to hide under the covers -then this issue will go the same way abortion in this country went!
I agree that this issue should not be ignored. I know which “frum” guy in Albany you’re referring to, and I agree that the likely answer is viHaKesef Yaaneh Es HaKol and that this is wrong. I also agree that small fires can easily lead to big ones.
But I am hopeful that BE”H these fires will be put out, not that they will be stoked and intentionally spread. We will see, BE”H, as this unfolds, and a new President can certainly turn things around, if he wishes to do so.
Regardless, **we** are certainly incomparable to sedom, and even the secular culture around us is, at this point, very, very much incomparable to sedom.
the dor hamabul was corrupt & thought they can fool Hashem & he doesn’t see.
in today’s dor we are sadly the same were we think we can fool Hashem & he doesn’t see us stealing USA programs not entitled to by putting your home under someone elses name, by borrowing someone Costco membership to save money that is only for the member on card etc….
even if the stealing is done. YOU can’t fool Hashem & he sees everything from above the world 24-7
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