December 23, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #629886
How very true how we have fallen from our purest form of Avodas Hashem.December 23, 2008 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #629887
1) Bitachon without hishtadlus is pointless. The Chazon Ish wrote that.
2) Men have been wearing rings for centuries.
3) IIRC, if a woman always wears her ring, she does not need to take it off to wash, but of course it would have to be removed for mikvah.December 23, 2008 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #629888
1) Bitachon without hishtadlus is pointless. The Chazon Ish wrote that.
perhaps ill advised, maybe even assur, but pointless? is that really what he said?
2) Men have been wearing rings for centuries.
Jewish men?December 23, 2008 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #629890
not sure about the history behind men wearing rings are, but i hear that it can be kinda necessary for a frum man (or any man, really) working in an office. if a guy’s not wearing a wedding band, very often women assume he’s single. not so smart :}December 23, 2008 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #629891
Please provide a source, as your quote is seemingly against the Rambam at the end of Shmita VYovel. I would like to see how thw Chazon Ish answers the apparent Stira.
Thanks.December 23, 2008 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #629892
Pointless in that if that is all a person has, then what is the point. Nothing is going to happen. (I’m not sure if he wrote that, but he did basically say that that is not what bitachon is.)
Jewish men have been wearing rings for centuries. Mordechai quickly comes to mind.
Rings weren’t just for decoration, they served a purpose as well.December 23, 2008 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #629893
“Jewish men have been wearing rings for centuries. Mordechai quickly comes to mind.
Rings weren’t just for decoration, they served a purpose as well.”
the issue being discussed in this thread is “wedding bands”
not rings of authority worn as symbols of leadership or kingship.
you know this.
you also know as well as i that Jewish men never wore wedding bands (and other rings only in exceptional rare specific circumstances) until the cancerous “enlightenment” movement, which began 2 centuries ago, brought the acceptability of worshiping and emulating the Goyim to the Jewish people.
doneDecember 23, 2008 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #629894
Exactly the opposite. If one has enough Bitachon he does not need Hishtadlus.
(not to say anyone is up to that level, but the point is true). See the Rambam I quoted.December 23, 2008 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #629896
good point.December 23, 2008 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #629897
brooklyn – your fears are misplaced. When working so closely with people it is difficult to hide ones’ personal information from them. The problems you are concerned with do exist but are not solved with a wedding band.December 23, 2008 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #629898
Squeak, maybe not for an office but what about in the medical field? If I married a guy that was a doctor I would probably want him to wear a ring (but only at work)December 23, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #629899
i know from men who work in not jewish/not frum offices. the last thing they want is a flirting secretary. yes, eventually she’ll find out you’re a married men. but why bother dealing with that – even if it’s for a week. or a day. and they’re constantly meeting new people. it’s so much easier to have it clear by wearing a wedding band. it’s takne for granted that a married man always wears a ring to work. that’s just how it is.
so yeah, if a guy’s a rebbie he won’t need it.December 23, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #629900
wearing a ring l’shaym shmayim, for shmira, to prevent an aveira, a ploy in the face of the Yatzer,
is an entirely different matter than
a man wearing a ring because that is simply the goyish tradition that has seeped into our corroded Minhagim, and accepted by us without a thought.
Hashem should, please, bring Moshiach soon.December 23, 2008 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #629901
brooklyn: The picture of your wife and kids on the desk usually gives it away. And with the “meeting new people” – it would be highly unusual for a one-sided flirtation to occur on first sight in a business setting. There are ethical standards about this (that are enforcable).
What people like even less is to watch two people constatly flirting with each other (married or not).December 23, 2008 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #629902
squeak – you could argue whatever you want. i didn’t say that a guy without a ring is in trouble. but it as easier to work in an office. especially if there are formal/informal parties that a guy must attend. maybe you’re not familiar with today’s society. a lot of crazy things happen, even in the most formal offices. by bro’s a lawyer. there are sick stories.
(and no, he doesn’t wear a ring – he’s the biggest snob on the planet:} though he sometimes thinks he should, anyway.)December 23, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #629903
Yea but if it’s common knowledge that the guy is married by seeing his ring maybe someone will try to stop the flirting. And there definately can be flirting at first siteDecember 23, 2008 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #629905
Don’t worry, I was not born yesterday. I know what goes on these days, and I know what went on before. I was only objecting to your statement that a man should have (you actually said it’s ‘kinda necessary’) a ring while he’s working w/ other people. And to that I say, believe me, the lack of a ring will not endanger him any more than having a ring will save him.
When you get married, you can insist on your husband wearing a ring if you want. But if you want it to assuage real concerns that you have then you are just applying a bandaid to a gunshot wound. Don’t be naive.
BTW, I do not wear a ring – and I have explained to people why I don’t countless times.December 23, 2008 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #629907
seriously, can you share how you explain it. I’ve been asked that more than once and lets say I squeaked by but not with an answer that satisfied the asker. More like ummm, ummm, we just don’t lol.December 24, 2008 1:19 am at 1:19 am #629909
Didn’t Yehudah wear a ring? It says in P’ Vayeshev that Tamar asked him to give her collateral for the two goats he promised her (thinking she was a zonah). One of the three tokens that he gave him was his Chosam. Isn’t that a signet ring?December 24, 2008 2:19 am at 2:19 am #629910
A yarmulke is usually as effective as a ring, from what I’ve heard.December 24, 2008 5:10 am at 5:10 am #629911
gavra, you are free of course to decline to respond to Doc or my own points, which is precisely my point: Don’t insist others must respond. I’ll assume you have come to the realization that the Rishonim are correct, and you are mistaken, not the Rishonim.
As far as this ring discussion, a Jew should not be flirting with others in the office, Gentile or Jew, regardless of his marital status, but kal vchomer if he is married. If someone feels the need for a shmira for himself, let him wear a nametag on his jacket or shirt pocket that states “I am married.” Unusual? Sticks out? Certainly less so than a Jewish man wearing a ring.December 24, 2008 6:28 am at 6:28 am #629912
chuck – at the same time you gotta fit in socially. you can’t wear a name tag saying “i am married” how tactless!December 24, 2008 10:45 am at 10:45 am #629913
Chuck, I tried to convince my husband to wear a sign like that LOL (just kidding)
Many times when married men dont wear rings people think that the marriage is in trouble or that the couple is seperated, making the man “free game.” I trust my husband 100%, but I would prefer a sign for other people so he doesnt get into uncomfortable situations.
My husband works for a company thats 80% male – I wonder how I would feel if there were more women at his company!!December 24, 2008 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #629914
Obviously, you have never learned the sugyah and therefore have no ability to respond. When you learn the material, please come back to me. Otherwise, your point (of Rishonim not misquoting other Rishonim) is only made out of ignorance.December 24, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #629915
charlie brown – the tactic for explaining anything to goyim is to just keep the details out of it. I simply say, “It is the custom of my family that the men do not wear rings. Only the women do”. Once or twice I had a raised eyebrow at that response and then I gently added that my family’s customs pre-date the double ring ceremony.
No one has ever asked me “why” the custom is that way. They’re not interested in why. I suppose that if goyim wanted to know the “why” behind customs they would have a difficult time living with their own religion.
I once had to explain it to a frei person, so I mentioned the reason with the egel. But only because he wouldn’t let me get away with less (he was not asking for personal enlightenment, or I would have been glad to talk).December 24, 2008 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #629916
fascinating how a “yissocher/ zevulun/kollel/work lifestyle~~emunah/bitachon” disscusion affecting our generation nowadays, has evolved into a discussion about men wearing wedding bands/rings.
I guess that is what is so attractive to people about the YW Coffee Room–one never knows where the topic will lead…………
Anyone that is interested in getting back on topic, I’d be quite curious to your insights on what was originally discussed.December 24, 2008 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #629917
Kiruv, thats probably because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum so it veered off 🙂
As to my thoughts – perhaps when the people who need the money stop looking down on those who earn the money, Kollel might be more viable.
With the current economic climate, many big baalei tzedaka can no longer give any money or have to give much more limited funds. Its going to be tough to get funding for Kollel when there are little children that are starving. My husband and I are both working in professional jobs (we both have degrees and decent paying jobs), but it takes both of us to pay the mortgage, bills, daycare…we have very few luxuries (the only thing I really consider a luxury at this point is our TV/internet/phone package of $100/month and our gardener) – I never have cleaning help, we cook 99% of our meals, we barely buy new clothing (my husband needed some new suits recently because he hadnt bought any in 4 years), I havent bought any new clothing (except maternity clothing) in about 3 years. I coupon shop to save a ton of money. We basically make ends meet and have a little left over in case anything goes wrong. How can I even begin to think about supporting a Kollel couple? Yes, I give maaser, but that primarily goes to my shul or to people who need food right now. Soon, it will go towards yeshiva tuition.
Kollel is a luxury and the branch of society that pushes it so hard needs to understand that. Every man is required to learn and most of the working men I know learn a lot. There is no exemption to stop learning just because you are working.December 24, 2008 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #629918
SJS–thanks for re-routing the thread….I haven’t read enough to realize it was an overdone topic to the point of sickening people.
It sounds like you have a lot of years ahead of you before you will be supporting a Kollel family (sounds like your kids haven’t started school yet)…..
I found it very interesting that you pointed out that kollel is a luxury…I’m going to have to chew on that for a while…..
Most of my friends (many years ago), and myself included, when we chose a kollel life we knew it involved major mesiras nefesh, and most of us weren’t getting a penny of support from anyone….we lived with a lot less, and enjoyed what came along with having less (things)…but the joy of sacrificing for a genuine life of Torah to build a foundation for a true Torah home has a depth and sweetness that can’t ever be replaced.
At the same time, my respect for those who are in the working field and set aside time that is truly scarce to have a chavrusa, or go to a shiur, is tremendous…..and the sweetness of that mesiras nefesh for the husband, wife, and children is irreplaceable.
As long as each person is honest with themselves, and realizes to sacrifice for Torah isn’t a bad thing, even though it is hard,,, that is what we should strive for…each in their own way and own level.December 24, 2008 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #629919
the only problem i ever heard about a man wearing a wedding band is that he’s not supposed to get it under the chuppa. regular kidushin is that the guy gives the girl a ring (or a coin) and we don’t want to mess that up. but afterward, why not?December 24, 2008 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #629920
thanks. That does help.December 24, 2008 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #629921
feivel, “wearing a ring l’shaym shmayim, for shmira, to prevent an aveira, a ploy in the face of the Yatzer, is an entirely different matter”
Why is that?December 24, 2008 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #629922
The ideal is to learn, but some people are not made for that so the second best thing to do is work and support learning people. U dont have to make calculation likes if noone is working because everyone is learning how will they make money. they wil be doing HaShems ratzone and he will help out. there are two ways a person can work. work in a business or wtvr and make money, or work delving into and learning into torah and HaShem will then take care of the parnasa part for you. and like your making it sound worst case everyone will be learning (a’h bkarov) Mashiach will be here!!…December 24, 2008 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #629923
Re bored@work: are all the working people people who “aren’t cut out for learning”? If they are working, does that mean to you that their bitachon, or level of learning, wasn’t good enough? There are a LOT of people out here who spent several (unsupported) years of learning in kollel and had to go out to work to support their families. I’d like some clarification.December 24, 2008 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #629924
Brooklyn, I was also told not to give my husband his ring in the yichud room because then it would still be like us bartering for marriage, rather than him giving me the ring (especially because his is worth more than my wedding band).
Kiruvwife, when you are ready, I am more than willing to debate that point if you disagree (I know not everyone does). I hear both sides of the statement, but lean more towards kollel being a luxury.December 25, 2008 12:21 am at 12:21 am #629925
gavra_at_work, Again this is my point exactly. You are entirely free to decline to respond to an issue. It is your prerogative. Please provide the same courtesy to other posters, and do not insist they must be responsive to your demands – whether to respond to your inquires or to not post on a thread. Additionally, I notice you are a frequent poster here, and I congratulate you on all the spare time you can afford, nevertheless I was quite surprised that you initiated a personal attack in your comment – the very tactic you have decried. I expected more from you gavra_at_work. I also expect a better attitude in future conversations.December 25, 2008 12:58 am at 12:58 am #629926
How bout looking at THE learning vs. working Q this way. Sources to either way are in excess, so lets leave em out.
Although there are other reasons as well there is however an unanimus consensus on the following. The purpose of us being dropped down here below, is to connect to and serve Hashem. The way to connect to Hashem is thru finding HIM in Torah (thru learning his wisdom), thru Mitzvos, AND Bechol derachecha dei’eihu; everything else your doing should be in order to serve and connect to Hashem.
Now it is also unanimus that VeTalmud Torah Keneged Kulam.
Now comes the opinion (so please disagree):
…Keneged Kulam is for those that will actually be connecting to Hashem fully thru it. Sitting and learning 14 hours a day is a feat only a select minority are designed for. And those few should and must be supported to learn full time. The Rogathover should NOT go work!!
However the rest of us, you know the guys like us who are posting on YN, and all those serving time in kollel, getting burnt out and cooled in at regular intervals, should be serving Hashem in other ways. No you are NOT from the elite, but G-D loves you anyway. He derives tremendous satisfaction when you earn a honest parnassah, give tzedakah MORE then you think you can, attend shiurim even though your shot, help the struggling bocher down the block, and talk to HIM when your spending the time in shul.
He loves it. AND HE LOVES IT BECOUSE your not elite, your just a regular simple guy. A simple guy trying to find Hashem in a complicated world is REAL YIDISHKEIT
And of course there are those in the middle someplace.
So i’m presenting the new barometer for every thinking brain: “How is my day being spent?” “Whats MY level of productivity for G-D?” and the answer to these questions are the answer to YOUR personal Learning vs. working dillemaDecember 25, 2008 1:49 am at 1:49 am #629927
bored@work, sorry, you’re completely wrong. It says the Yissachar and Zevulun are EQUAL partners. Yissachar is NOT better than Zevulun.
Your attitude is exactly the kind of thing which turned me off to Judaism when I was younger. As a result of that, I spent about a year where I wasn’t religious.December 25, 2008 2:25 am at 2:25 am #629928
gavra_at_work, Again this is my point exactly. You are entirely free to decline to respond to an issue. It is your prerogative. Please provide the same courtesy to other posters, and do not insist they must be responsive to your demands – whether to respond to your inquires or to not post on a thread. Additionally, I notice you are a frequent poster here, and I congratulate you on all the spare time you can afford, nevertheless I was quite surprised that you initiated a personal attack in your comment – the very tactic you have decried. I expected more from you gavra_at_work. I also expect a better attitude in future conversations.December 25, 2008 3:05 am at 3:05 am #629929
gavra_at_work, Again this is my point exactly. You are entirely free to decline to respond to an issue. It is your prerogative. Please provide the same courtesy to other posters, and do not insist they must be responsive to your demands – whether to respond to your inquires or to not post on a thread. Additionally, I notice you are a frequent poster here, and I congratulate you on all the spare time you can afford, nevertheless I was quite surprised that you initiated a personal attack in your comment – the very tactic you have decried. I expected more from you gavra_at_work. I also expect a better attitude in future conversations.December 25, 2008 4:19 am at 4:19 am #629930
Give it a rest, Chuck.
ROTFLDecember 25, 2008 4:38 am at 4:38 am #629931
squeak, Don’t bang your head too hard while you are ROTFL 🙂 No idea why it posted multiple times though.December 25, 2008 4:50 am at 4:50 am #629932
yissacar and zevulun are only equal because they divide everything equally. there were other shevatim that devoted their lives to learning. Levi (when not working in the bais hemikdash) and Asher, for sure.
but yes, we find throughout tanach that the leaders did work. (most of them as shepards)December 25, 2008 5:00 am at 5:00 am #629933
who uses “ROTFL” anyway? LOL is much more used!December 25, 2008 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #629934
Brooklyn, ROTFL conotes a much funnier line than LOL.December 25, 2008 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #629935
what does rotfl stand for-rolling on the floor?December 25, 2008 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #629936
rolling on the floor laughingDecember 25, 2008 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #629937
SJS–I try not to be the debate type. As long as people are on their ladder of growth and going upwards that is what Hashem wants to see. Harbei D’rochim Lamakom—as long as people are intellectually honest, get the proper hadracha, and actually have a derech to come closer to HKB”H, thats what matters.
I can hear what you’re saying that kollel is a luxury–when I took time to chew on that idea, I thought back to moments I savor and live over in my minds eye when we were exclusively in kollel. It was a spiritual luxury which is irreplacable. I’m doubting that’s how you meant it—but I do hear from your perspective what you mean.December 25, 2008 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #629938
lol i get it.December 26, 2008 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #629939
kiruvwife, I don’t think debate is a bad thing. Its not about attacking someone else, just trying to understand a different view point!
Can you expand on your spiritual luxury phrase? I am not quite sure I understand it.December 26, 2008 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #629940
“Yissachar is NOT better than Zevulun”
but it is better to BE Yissachar than Zevulun.
they both have an equal OlamHaBoh
but Yissachar has a better OlamHaZeh.
i dont recall who said this but it was an Adam Godol.
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