Our Society And a Developing Crisis

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  • #629941

    oomis
    Participant

    “The ideal is to learn, but some people are not made for that so the second best thing to do is work and support learning people. U dont have to make calculation likes if noone is working because everyone is learning how will they make money. they wil be doing HaShems ratzone and he will help out. there are two ways a person can work. work in a business or wtvr and make money, or work delving into and learning into torah and HaShem will then take care of the parnasa part for you. and like your making it sound worst case everyone will be learning (a’h bkarov) Mashiach will be here!!…”

    Even if one IS “made for that” it does not mean that is what he should be doing. It is easy to sit and learn while someone else is supporting you, so you have no financial concerns. In my humble opinion, I have at least as much respect (I would say MORE respect, but that will open a can of worms), for the man who earns a living and learns every day as well, because he has made his learning choshuv to himself. Your implication that no one has to worry about work because Hashem will help, is another one of those extremely idealistic, but also unrealistic notions. Hashem helps those who help themselves, and I don’t think that means “help themselves to other people’s parnassah.” We all have a chiyuv to earn a lving to support our families, give tzedaka, and raise a next generation of klal Yisroel. That generation will be one that feels an even worse sense of entitlement than the present one, if this trend is not modified. And what is worse, there will be no Yeshivah people with any professions, because they never become educated.

    #629942

    kiruvwife
    Member

    SJS–I find your question to be engaging, and sincere, and realize your perspective on debate so I’ll try to answer in a way you’ll understand.

    The spiritual luxury of being in kollel, came with a lot less resposibility than I have now. We lived with less, because we didn’t need those things. We didn’t have a number of tuitions to pay, or bli ayin hara, so many mouths to feed. The sweetness of those years, of being totally wrapped in a learning Torah environment felt like a luxury to me. It was a gift from HKB”H that in the “teva” sense really shouldn’t have happened (absolutely no monetary support). At the time I don’t know that I could have articulated the luxury part, but in retrospect it is best described as a spiritual luxury.

    #629943

    To the editor-

    Thank you for posting on this topic. This is something that is a very serious matter and should be of grave concern (unless it already is) to our manhigim and community as a whole, whether “modern”, yeshivish” or any other stripe.

    I’ve been thinking about this topic since I saw and article in the Monsey publication “The Advocate” that stated that Gov. Paterson was considering cutting funding to yeshivas in NYS by 41% due to budget cuts. Leaving aside the issue of why yeshivos should even be getting funding under separation of church and state or why yeshiva tuition is so high if aid is forthcoming, it got me thinking about the issue of self-financing our Torah study.

    My thoughts on this issue are similar to the original poster’s (OP). A general trend towards making a go at Toraso umnaso is, by itself, a good thing and a good indicator of the religious health of Orthodoxy worldwide. The problem is funding. If the trend is true and continues, financing that life choice will get harder and harder throughout the generations. The only reason we can enjoy so many people learning Torah is due to the current generosity of people, by and large, of a previous generation, of a time when widespread kollel learning and mosdos in every corner of Orthodoxy was a distant pipe dream, a time when most people worked and when therefore the likelihood of producing people with the financial means to give support was much greater.

    The pool of tzedaka dollars available from that generation will dry up, and with an increasing trend towards a kollel, klai kodesh, or chinuch lifestyles, that pool will not be refreshed adequately. The workers of the Yissachar-Zevulun equation will increasingly be asked to subsidise those who no longer enjoy that support, creating financial strain on an laready strained segment and suppressing financial contribution to the ever-dwindling pool of funds available. The illegal defrauding of state and federal government aid programmes (HUD, Medicaid, tax evasion) will surge (out of necessity, I do understand) and will create terrible chillul H”. This is a scenario that is not impossible.

    What to do? It’s not my place to dictate what should be done for everybody, but this will be a community problem and needs solving via achdus – communal concern and input no matter what your frum stripe. So here’s some suggestions:

    -Kollelim and yeshivos may consider being more selective in whom they admit. It needs to be discerned who really and truly has the ability and will to involve themselves in the lifestyle one must accustom themselves to.

    -Gedolim may want to consider suggesting a needs assessment before soliciting funds and breaking ground for new mosdos. There may not be a need for a “kollel/yeshia/mosad/shul” on every corner. I do humbly suspect that some of these are the product of poor planning for need and really exist because somebody wants the kavod of being called a “rosh kollel”. I know that’s harsh but I think is reality.

    -Gedolim and manhigim may want to try to shift the focus onto familial responsibility in decision-making. Parents have the responsibility to provide parnassa for their families, period. Relying on government programs whether legitimately or not is NOT a lechatchila option when making crucial decisions and should be treated as an OPTION OF ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, when a legitimate, responsible attempt has been made at supporting a family, regardless of how one goes about that support. Put another way, it’s unthinkable to us that a person decides to go into a known low -income profession lechatchila and says “well, I have no financial worries because there’s always the tzedaka box that I can raid”. I firmly believe that making a decision to learn, etc with the intention on relying on government programs is a form of stealing, both from the government (a strongly possible issur – someone can clarify) and from fellow Jewish taxpayers (a very grave, definite issur). How can a person be incredibly machmir on, say, kashrus, while justify stealing from the cookie jar of government programs that were never meant to be used as a payroll?

    In brief, my own personal opinion is that we need to be intellectually honest and able to respond to realities around us. Parents and potential parents need to be responsible and consider all options and how they’d deal with their consequences before making decisions.

    #629944

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    kiruvwife, I understand what you mean. For people who are in Kollel and are truly sincere, I am sure that is true.

    I wonder then if the current generation of Kollel men have it too easy? Does making it too easy for them to learn take away some of the spirituality of it? As a former “member of the club” what do you think?

    #629945

    Joseph
    Participant

    ”Enlightened”,

    The Gedolim Shlita are sure to thank you for all these wonderful ideas that they didn’t come up with on their own.

    #629946

    tzippi
    Member

    EJew, I’m with you but when you say at the end that people have to think twice about going into low paying professions, clearly you don’t just mean kollel. What do you mean? Chinuch? What else?

    #629947

    oomis
    Participant

    Enlightened Jew, I found your entire post to be very well-expressed. I had not even considered the fraud that is perpetrated by some. We look askance at those welfare recipients who are on welfare because they have too many children and don’t seem to want to work. And yes, though there is a WORLD of difference between such people and Yeshivah yungerleit who are using their time to learn Torah, to the outside world who pay taxes that support both populations, there seems to be little difference in the end result, which is the appearance that someone is still getting something for nothing.

    #629948

    tzippi – thanks for the comment – by “low paying professions” I did mean klai kodesh kollel, chinuch, etc, but I do feel that what I said equally applies to making a decision about lower paying professions that have nothing to do with yahadus. I was not making judgments, nor bashing kollel/klai kodesh, etc, ch’v, just making an observation of reality and I hope my words were carefully chosen so as not to seem so. I meant that a person should probably stop and think if they really can accustom themselves to the lifestyle that they probably will need to lead. If you truly can do that that is a sacrifice of gashmius that should be looked to for chizuk. But when making that decision I think people need to be careful and intellectually honest with themselves, that’s all.

    Oomis1105 – thanks. I am not trying to pass judgment about those who are on any form of welfare – we US taxpayers have made a social decision to allow these programmes to exist to help those who find themselves in in need. Its making a conscious decision TO ENTER a lifestyle or profession by saying “oh, well i can always dip into welfare” that I feel is wrong.

    Joseph- I will preface my comment on you post by saying that I am not really a “flamer” when it comes to blogging or forum posting. Having said that, I do not appreciate the tone of sarcasm in your post. I have some very passionate feelings about this topic but tried to bend as far backwards as I could in presenting my thoughts on the matter in a tone and with language that would be the least offensive or misconstrued. I am a human being, with failings, and may have let passion get the better of me in previous posts, but I tried hard in this post to do better. I probably wasn’t 100% successful in this regard, but I tried pretty hard. You obviously jumped to a conclusion from a screen name, then read the post with an obviously strong agenda. It appears as if you may have zoomed through the entire post before zeroing in on what you perceive to be a slight on our gedolim and manhigim, but missed something that I wrote that could be particularly salient to your point of concern: “This is something that is a very serious matter and should be of grave concern (unless it already is)…” There’s a reason why I wrote that at the very beginning. I’ve been a ‘lurker’ here for some time and noticed in your posts that jumping to a conclusion a little prematurely because of an agenda seems to be somewhat of a signature. I don’t think that’s a fair way to engage in debate nor is it, in due respect, a fair way to respond to fellow Jews. Why do you feel the urge to be combative? And, given my inference from your post that gedolim have come up with answers, HAVE our manhigim said anything yet (and I DO NOT mean this to be critical, just an innocent question) – is it a BAD thing for manhigim to take any input at all from the klal????? I’m sitting here scratching my head while trying to figure out what exactly prompted the tone and wording of your response.

    #629949

    squeak
    Participant

    To HaskalaYid, re: What did joseph mean:

    A certain Rov was once approached by a group of his ba’alei battim. They were bothered by a certain psak that R’ Moshe Feinstein made, and they explained how it affected them personally. They requested that the Rav explain to R’ Moshe why his psak was a source of difficulty and that he should try to be more meikil. The Rav’s response was simple:

    “You, are asking me, to tell the Godol Hador, what to do? That is not how it works. The Godol Hador, will tell me, and I, will tell the ba’alei battim, what to do.” (extra commas added for emphasis; you had to hear it)

    P.S. If you don’t want someone to go on the defensive because of your screen name, why don’t you change it.

    #629950

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Enlightened”,

    squeak said it better than I could. Thank you squeak.

    #629951

    eyesopen
    Member

    To kiruvwife: I felt exactly as you did when we were in Kollel. My husband and I were not supported by parents-we managed all by ourselves with siyata dishmaya. I wonder if all the people who go to Kollel would know that they have to self support-if they would still do it. For four years we lived on $1400 a month after taxes. Bein hazmanim we took on extra jobs. My husband worked at really low paying jobs, warehouse, dry cleaning, barber, because he had no secular education. I worked from 8 am until 8pm. I can’t begin to tell you the great respect he has for both Zevulun and Yissaschar. We also learned self respect because we did not take handouts.

    I am irked by the prevailing attitude today that working boys are somehow less desirable. I propose that anyone who wants to be in kollel today be told that he will have to do so on his own without support (as we did). And that bein hazmanim he works. What about the working kollel wife earning low wages? I know so many young kollel wives today and they do not know what it means to earn the learning. They also do not work, have cleaning ladies, go shopping, and to “coffee” weekly, and to a gym. Who is funding this? No wonder so many want to go to kollel!!

    #629952

    kiruvwife
    Member

    SJS–I think “too easy” is a relative term. It depends on how their parents raised them, the derech they want to take, and if they want to taste the sweetness of histapkus. I know a lot of yungerleit who fall across the spectrum, and there are those that are struggling financially a lot more then others. The ones that I know, who are not looking for (or have access to) an easier route, are investing in their spirituality in a very deep way. The ones that have it easier, it’s really hard for me to jugde because I don’t know if they could experience it differently.

    I do know some that have chosen a life with less gashmius, and have turned down full time jobs to struggle to be in kollel a little longer, and they don’t regret it at all. The values they were able to instill in their children is everlasting.

    So, the spirituality of the experience I think depends on each families nekudas ha’bechirah. The choice to live with less depends on each individual, but to make that choice I think would add to that persons overall ruchnius. I don’t think it is safe to say that the overall generation of kollel families have it too easy.

    Living with less in general though is something I do advocate.

    #629953

    anon for this
    Participant

    eyesopen,

    My husband did learn in kollel during the first two years we were married. He arranged to take time off from school to do this. Neither my parents nor his were able to provide financial support, but we did not expect them to do this. B”H I found a job that supported our family (we did not take the small stipend offered by the kollel either). We didn’t need cleaning help, since there was only us and our baby, and B”H my husband did not have to take on other work.

    I really admire you and the other people I know who learn in kollel for so long, and take on so many jobs to do this.

    #629954

    Thanks to all for the replies. Joseph, squeak, thanks for the clarification! I can relate a story of my own, though, and would like to speak to the story quoted by squeak. My father happened to be at the Aguda Convention about 25 years or so ago. He was davening shacharis at a later minyan and saw R’ Moshe zt’l folding up his tallis to leave an earlier minyan. My father (who speaks a somewhat fair yiddish and can get by) felt this was an opportunity to precious to pass up and decided to go and give R’ Moshe sholom aleichem, in and of itself a learning experience. I don’t know quite how their conversation went (I think my father mentioned his brother was a posek), but at one point R’ Moshe told my father that the job of a posek (today) is to be maikil when he can. My father remembers this vividly (after all, it WAS R’ Moshe! You don’t forget that).

    Let’s go back to squeak’s story. I’d respond to it by saying that it’s possible, knowing now what R’ Moshe’s beliefs were vis a vis paskening, that HAD R’ Moshe been contacted he MAY have changed or modified his p’sak for that community, if halachically possible in order . Squeak’s story doesn’t specify whether the Rov asked R’ Moshe for this particular p’sak for this particular group, whether the p’sak was generally issued through Igros Moshe and thus could’ve been issued on a case basis, whether R’ Moshe asked the psak be disseminated to the “hamon am”, or other scenarios. Who even said that this Rov was correct in HIS assessment of what he should or shouldn’t be asking R’ Moshe?? To me, squeak’s story doesn’t necesarily prove that decisions on matters of practical policymaking can’t be made by the gedolim for the klal without any input from the klal or experts within the klal acting on its behalf.

    Additionally, please pay attention to my original point. I wondered whether manhigim can take input from the klal at all in making what are essentially policy decisions. I wasn’t asking whether manhigim should solicit opinions from laypeople on strict matters of halacha. Do we need to listen and obey without question should gedolim decide that investing in GM or ExxonMobil is a good idea for our mosdos to make some extra money or should we as a klal make suggestions and give input? Should we accept as an article of faith a gadol’s decision to build a yeshiva in a particular location in a particular city or suggest to the gadol that there may be a more advantageous site due to certain factors that the gadol might not have known about? This list could go on and on and on. The point is that nobody is omniscient and nobody knows absolutely everything there is to know in this wide world. In matters of halacha, our gedolim do indeed know best. In, say, more mundane matters, maybe also yes, then again maybe gedolim need input from experts or others to help them arrive at a decision that’s best for the klal.

    #629955

    I also just want to weigh in on the wedding ring issue. R’ Moshe Feinstein writes in an anaf of a teshuva that I read through (I forgot where, I will try to find it) that a man wearing a ring that his wife gives him is NOT chukas ha goyim (that is, if it was NOT part of a double ring ceremony) it is permissible because it’s just “noy”, like a man wearing cufflinks or a good watch as jewelry. He also writes that the issur of a double ring ceremony is more related to the takana that was put in place regarding mayim she’uvim than chukas hagoyim. Basically, he felt that it was very possible and real an observer of the ceremony would conclude that it was ALSO a kiyum kedushin should a woman give a man a ring – he’d go and permit this or do it himself and be living then b’issur.

    #629956

    Allow me to add to my “ring” post that Igros Moshe are NOT recommended for p’sak (duh) and I wasn’t trying to issue anything of the kind. Still, reading through the teshuva is enlightening.

    #629957

    Sorry, just saw this and had to ask 😉

    YW Editor, where does “Key Master” come from?

    #629958

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    kiruvwife, you sound like a wonderful, sincere person, and yasher koach for what you sacrificed for Kollel.

    Anon, the same goes for you. Its wonderful that you didn’t take the Kollel stipend since you didn’t need it. Others might have said they would take it and live more comfortable or save it or something. That in and of itself is probably a big zechus!

    Sometimes, I look at some kollel couples and wonder what they are sacrificing. They are being supported by their parents, including nice cars, vacations, cleaning ladies…it just makes me suspect how noble their sacrifice to learn Torah is. A friend of mine has a husband in Kollel. They sacrifice a lot and work hard. A friend of her husband’s came to borrow money from them because his in-laws were no longer supporting them and his wife still wanted to maintain the same lifestyle (expensive clothing, fancy jewelry, manicures all the time etc)…perhaps they would be better off with a working husband.

    The Gedolim Shlita are sure to thank you for all these wonderful ideas that they didn’t come up with on their own.

    Joseph, the gedolim are NOT omnicient. Sometimes, it would be helpful if they listen to a myriad of opinions. I am not saying they don’t, just that its not wrong to bring up some good ideas that could be helpful to the klal. Also, sometimes, someone who is too deeply involved may have trouble seeing certain helpful things.

    #629959

    squeak
    Participant

    enlightenedjew – your reply shows a desire to make suggestions with humility. That was absent from your original post. I certainly see nothing wrong with trying to give input that will help a Godol reach a decision. As long as it is done with the correct mindset (i.e. not the mindset of those in my anecdote).

    I never thought of the Key Master thing before, but maybe he’s searching for the Gate Keeper.

    #629960

    Joseph
    Participant

    The solution to this so-called ”crisis” is more Torah learning, more Kollel yungerleit, more Yeshivas, and more Yiddishe kinder.

    #629961

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The solution to this so-called ”crisis” is more Torah learning, more Kollel yungerleit, more Yeshivas, and more Yiddishe kinder.

    Care to elaborate on how that solves the “crisis?”

    The Wolf

    #629962

    postsemgirl
    Member

    When I was in sem in Eretz Yisroel, from after Pesach untill we went home after Shavuos, all the teacher’s lessons had something to do about kollel how great it is and how it is the only way blah blah blah. We also had to write a 12 page report about kollel and the benifits of learning. There are many. This is what girls are hearing. But guess what? NOT EVERY GIRL IS CUT OUT TO BE A KOLLEL WIFE!! is that apikorsus. Maybe to some. But there are girls out there who get brainwashed to think that if their husbands don’t learn, they are not worth too much. This is totaly wrong!! They are also scared to go against the system. Not everyone can do it. Also not every boy can do it but they are too scared that they won’t get a shidduch if they don’t learn so they waste their days and in law’s money by being bentch warmers.

    the next point is that not all Zevulans are real Zevulans. A Zevulan is someone who wishes he can learn and wishes his children can be in kollel not someone who looks down upon those in Kollel as boys who are too lazy to work.

    Anyway the whole system is messed up.

    #629963

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    put it this way: some people have the zchus to be Yissachar. Zevulun’s a special person too, but if you had a choice, which part of the deal would you want?

    you don’t HAVE to learn in kollel or be a “kollel wife.” but it’s a zchus and a privilege. and not everyone is privileged.

    #629964

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf,

    ”Crisis”? What ”crisis”?

    I said ”so-called crisis.”

    #629965

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Yes you did. My error and apologies.

    The Wolf

    #629966

    tzippi
    Member

    Postsemgirl, back in the day, a quarter century ago when I went to sem, they didn’t stress kollel as much as serious life-long learning. What they do now sometimes seems more like turning off from than brainwashing for.

    Brooklyn19, who is more privileged:

    a) a couple being generously supported for 5 years minimum?

    b) a couple that isn’t being supported at all but manages to stay in kollel for a year or two?

    c) a couple where the husband learns half day, works half day?

    d) a couple where the husband works full time and learns steadily and seriously on a daily basis?

    The correct answer is, there are too many more variables to be able to give a definitive answer. ANY of these couples could be truly privileged, if they keep it real and live l’shem Shamayim.

    #629967

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    whatever the situation. someone who is able to sit and learn – for whatever reason – be it rich parents, a wife with i great income, a lotto ticket… whatever it is it’s a zchus. i’m not saying everyone can have that zchus. some guys can’t sit all day. and some can’t afford it financially. but those who do (and many of them sacrifice a lot) are lucky.

    and yes, there’s no saying who’s schar is greater. we have no idea.

    #629968

    postsemgirl
    Member

    -tzippi

    sorry sem has changed. so has the price!

    #629969

    dd
    Member

    Oh the irony! Charge $20K for seminary and then tell the girls that they should aspire to a life of kollel.

    B”H my daughters chose sane seminaries.

    #629970

    postsemgirl
    Member

    -dd

    What is a sane sem if I may ask?

    #629971

    oomis
    Participant

    “The solution to this so-called ”crisis” is more Torah learning, more Kollel yungerleit, more Yeshivas, and more Yiddishe kinder”

    Joseph, I believe that you are genuine and earnest in this belief, and on some level, I agree with some of what you say. But the fact is that the more guys who are sitting and ONLY learning, but not becoming educated in a field that will bring them a parnassah, and the more Yeshivahs that are built, when there is not enough money to pay for the buildings and teachers in the ones that are already in existence, the less likely it is that we will have a next generation of yungerleit. SOMEONE has to pay for all of this, and I think girls are beginning to wake up and resent having to do it ALL, i.e., have baby after baby, yet continue to work outside the home, supporting the family, cooking the meals, paying someone else to raise their children….etc. The system needs a HUGE overhaul – and right now!

    #629972

    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis1105,

    I do agree with you it is far from ideal (to put it very mildly) that women should be working outside the home.

    Every Jewish family should have many children IY’H.

    #629973

    intellegent
    Member

    In response to Oomis’s comment, first I want to say that I don’t really feel comfortable offering my opinion in this area because I am not sure what that is. I just want to say that my husband is learning and I am working (a not very fun job…) My husband happens to help me a lot in the house and I don’t feel resentful at all. If anything I always feel like I’m not doing enough.

    #629974

    tzippi
    Member

    Postsemgirl, I won’t name names but my daughters’ seminaries have some real, shut the tape off the record classes where they talk about reality, and the importance of a strong Jewish home, and yes, the primacy of Torah. But while the sems are very positive about kollel, and introduce them to wonderful people living the dream, it is not any one way or the highway. It is maximizing each girl’s potential and helping her find her place in the world.

    #629975

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m glad you think every Jewish family should have many children. How do you define “many”? The mitzvah in the Torah is to have a boy and a girl.

    My Rav told me that R’ Reuvain Feinstein shlita told him that he wishes people in Lakewood knew that you can easily get a heter for birth control if needed. He said people there have a kid every year, when they can’t afford it, both financially and emotionally. I know from my brother that in Lakewood now, every chosson is told during his classes that birth control can be an option, and they need to ask.

    I was also told that one of the big poskim in Lakewood (I won’t say which one, as some people might be upset by this) said that in the time of the Gemara, a woman’s body took longer to recuperate from giving birth, and wasn’t able to become pregnant for 3 years (not that she wasn’t allowed to for her health, her body didn’t ovulate again for that long). He said that nowadays, he thinks it should be mandatory for a couple to wait a few years between children, because they can’t deal with so many children, again both financially and emotionally.

    #629977

    postsemgirl
    Member

    -Tzippi

    I think every “bais yaakov” trys to push kollel.

    #629978

    Joseph
    Participant

    Feif,

    May Klal Yisroel today be zocha to have as many children as we had in Eretz Mitzrayim!

    #629979

    Joseph-

    I don’t think it’s possible to emotionally and financially handle THAT many kids!!

    Maybe part of this galus that we’re in is the reduced ability to handle that many children – which should make us all the more so daven for the geula?

    #629980

    Joseph
    Participant

    Oy”Enlightened” one, where is your bitachon?

    #629981

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, do you even know the meaning of bitachon?

    Bitachon means that however many children you have, you recognize that it is the best thing that could have happened for you. That’s it. You’re mixing up the definitions of emunah and bitachon.

    #629982

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph:

    If we (the yeshiva velt) had the proper Bitachon, we wouldn’t have the problem!

    The question assumes that we are not on the level to completely leave our worries to Hashem and therefore feel some Hishtadlus is required.

    If you are on that level, I envy you. I also wonder why you are not learning full time.

    #629983

    eyesopen
    Member

    Joseph: We are being zocheh to seeing large amounts of multiple births in our days. When I first taught, there was not one set of twins in any of my classes. This year I have twins in every class and three sets of triplets. My neighbor gave birth to two sets of twins within three years and is expecting again. I remember a time that people would exclaim over the birth of twins and triplets. B”H it is very commonplace these days.

    #629984

    Joseph
    Participant

    Feif,

    Let us just agree that it would be a great zchus for us (and we would be very lucky) to have as many children as our Zeidas had in Eretz Mitzrayim, okay?

    (As far as your last point, its true to the extent you do not attempt to interfere with HKB’H decision vis-a-vis mother nature.)

    #629985

    squeak
    Participant

    Emunah is Hashem is, was and always will be. He created the world, and everything in it.

    Bitachon is trusting that Hashem will take care of you in any situation.

    Believing that what happens is for the best is a positive middah and a high madreiga, but I’m not sure if which category it fits in exactly. Certainly, what Joseph said is an example of bitachon – trusting that Hashem will give you the emotional and financial means to handle the number of children that He gives you.

    #629986

    oomis
    Participant

    ” If anything I always feel like I’m not doing enough.”

    If you are earning the parnassah and having children (if none yet, then B”EH when you are ready), then you are already doing a great deal. Women in the traditional stay at home role, are with their families all day long,and when their husbands get home from work OR Yeshiva, that does not give the husbands a pass on parenting and sharing in the running of the household. I commend your husband for doing his part. he is not “helping,” he is being a responsible adult. I used to get upset when someone would ask me if my husband was babysitting when I went out without my children. My answer was always that he was PARENTING, just as I do when he is not home. Fortunately my husband was always mature enough to realize that he and I are equal partners in our Bayis ne’eman, and even though one of us may have a differnt tafkid from the other at specific points of the day, when we are both home, we are in it totally together.

    #629987

    bored@work
    Participant

    tzippi, the different options you gave of lifes are pretty structured, what about something in between, you sound mocking that any couple in kollel for five years is being supported, what about those who dont take support and actually work, and about the couples that stay in kollel for a year or two and live as they did singles getting everything they wish for? and no seminaries dont brain wash to kollel kollel kollel, I think I had maybe 3 classes on it the whole year, but they do show us chashivus hatorah, and I just see what true emes is and go after it. From my wish not their pushing it onto me.

    #629988

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, the posuk says the harder the Jews worked in Egypt, the more kids they had. It’s brought down that Shevet Levi didn’t have that may kids because they didn’t work, they were learning. According to you, wouldn’t it be better to have less kids? After all, don’t you think learning is better than working?

    I guess Hashem knew that you have to work in order to be able to support all those kids!

    #629989

    Joseph
    Participant

    Feif,

    Lets simplify this on what you said. You seem agreeable that Yidden that work should be zocha to have as many children as our working Zaidas in Eretz Mitzrayim.

    #629990

    tzippi
    Member

    I didn’t mean to sound mocking at all. In fact, it is entirely possible that even with generous support the long term support kollel couple is being down to earth and doing what they’re supposed to. All I wanted to stress was that all the options, and I only mentioned a few, there are as many options as there all people I guess, are equally valid, and that everyone has the potential to be precious in Hashem’s eyes, regardless of the decisions they made (or that reality helped them make).

    #629991

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    i once heard this and i think it’s beautiful:

    “when it come to having children, don’t see if there’s room in your house. see if there’s room in your heart.”

    just a little story: a neighbor of mine (VERY modern – not even sure if they fit into the MO category) was once talking about having kids and she said that her husband was worried to have more. my mother told her this. a year later she had a boy and when she called my mom to tell her about the bris, she said “i told my husband what you said and he gave in in a second.”

    one more yid in the world!

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