July 17, 2008 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #587899Y.W. EditorKeymaster
I understand that you have previously posted an article about the drinking that goes on Upstate and I wanted to reiterate the importance of our Rabbonim discouraging this despicable behavior.
I attend a bungalow colony with approximately 40 families. If one were to stroll in on a normal Sunday afternoon, you would think that it is a nice Yeshivish crowd with responsible adults playing with their kids. It truly is one of the nicest bungalow colony scenes that I have ever seen (and I have seen many). From the time the men start rolling in on Thursday evening until they are all out on Monday afternoon, all but one hour are a true Kiddush Hashem and I am proud to be a part of it.
The problem is that one hour!!!July 17, 2008 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #619589emanParticipant
I can provide independent validation to this letter. I recently gave a tikun in my local minyan. I personally drink occasionally so I brought scotch, bourbon and orange juice with 7 oz and 1 oz cups. One guy comes over takes a 7 oz cup and fills it halfway with bourbon(no scotch). This is a weekday morning and this gentleman is going to work.July 17, 2008 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #619590JosephParticipant
“You would think that it is a nice Yeshivish crowd with responsible adults playing with their kids. It truly is one of the nicest bungalow colony scenes that I have ever seen (and I have seen many). From the time the men start rolling in on Thursday evening until they are all out on Monday afternoon, all but one hour are a true Kiddush Hashem and I am proud to be a part of it.”
Baloney. Obviously from what follows in your article, this deceptive description of the colony being “a true Kiddush Hashem”, etc. is plain hogwash.July 17, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #619591saneMember
If you find this behavior so despicable, then why don’t you go to a different bungalow colony. My colony has no such problem. You apparently are amused by it and that is why you stay.July 17, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #619592YAKZMember
YOU ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OF THIS. THE ONLY REASON THESE GUYS DRINK IS TO GET AWAY FROM THE STRESS OF ALL THE CRISIS IN THEIR LIVES.July 17, 2008 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #619593torahjewMember
Unfortunately this is not a problem just at Bungalow Colonies. This is a serious problem in the Jewish Community at large. Many people have become alcoholics because of what goes on at kiddushim.
People forget that the preferred way to make kiddush is on wine/grape juice and not hard liquor. Hard liquor was used in Europe because wine was not available. B’H we live in a time where wine/grape juice is readily available.
B’H the Shul I attend does not allow alcohol. At the kiddush there is only grape juice.July 17, 2008 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #619594
Wake up and stop dreaming. A “nice yeshivish crowd” would not have an organized baseball team. The problem is you are being posaich al shnei ha’seifim. Adam nikar le’fi, kisu, koso, ve’kaaso. Hard beleive that there are not other issues in your colony (i.e, tznius, marbeh sicha im ha’isha, kvias itim le’torah)
Insofar as your being people that are mi haish hacheftz le’chaim, what would you want a Rav to do for you?
You sound sincere, but need to take care of this yourselves.
hatzlacha ve’chol tuvJuly 17, 2008 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #619595eliezerMember
I’m not one for all out uncontrolled Shikrus (everyone knows their limits – and if they don’t they shouldn’t even sip a drink), but if for one hour a week, on Shabbos, the men want to let loose and have a roaring good time, I see nothing wrong with it.
It’s the perfect time to drink a bit more than usual…think about it… we can’t drive, we will likely be eating right afterwards and then nap, and three hours later we’re back to being our responsible selves.
I join a Shabbos morning kiddush sometimes in my town and me and my friends drink much more than we normally would… but it’s safe, and it’s the right time…and if this is the “bad” in us, then it’s all good.July 17, 2008 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #619598levtov32Member
I am amazed that each & every problem is the responsibility of the Rabbonim & since when can Rabbonim preach or teach common sense, in this case you all lack common sense as you dont know how to control yourself & dont know right from wrong, never mind in front of your kids, but you are coming out for the weekend & your wives are waiting & happy to see you & this is what you do. I am sure your wives prepared a beautiful shabbos meal & this is the way to thanks them, shame on all of you. as you dont even have self respect.
how come you dont do it all week in the city with your buddies & nobody will know ??
As for the Author of the letter let me copy your quote right here “all but one hour are a true Kiddush Hashem and I am proud to be a part of it ” sorry to say you are no better, as there is a famous saying birds of a feather flock together, you should have never been in this place to begin with, second, if you feel so repugnant by their behavior, why are you standing there & watching, you have nothing better to do, just pick yourself up & leave & maybe somebody will take a hint, but you are standing there & just watching, I am sure you are enjoying how they all behave.
There is a very famous expression ” you teach by example ” When you go to a Bungalow in the summer most decent people check out who their so called acquaintances who they are going to be & how come you did not do your due diligence.July 17, 2008 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #619599
to eliezer: “I’m not one for all out uncontrolled Shikrus (everyone knows their limits – and if they don’t they shouldn’t even sip a drink), but if for one hour a week, on Shabbos, the men want to let loose and have a roaring good time, I see nothing wrong with it.”
There are many reasons why this day is “shabbos kodesh”. What’s yours?July 17, 2008 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #619600Bentzy18Participant
The problem is going to be the fact that these people like to drink and they have zero interest in stopping any time soon. It has nothing to do with oneg shabbos or even stress. These are men who choose to act like kids and want to do what they want to do, no matter what embarrassment it may cause. The Rav who gets drunk with them is no better and is doing a diservice to his kahilah for showing poor judgment and being an negative example of how one should act. So I don’t know what more you can do besides start a major rift within and most likly have to find a new bungalow colony. (being that the owner of the colony is a big drinker, you may have little choice)
In the meantime if it really bothers you, skip the kiddush. Maybe get a few other families who share the same feelings and get together and make a mini kidush by your bungalow. Tell your children that life is about choices and that sometimes adults can make poor choices. You can use this as an educational tool as well to your children about the effects of alcohol and how destructive is can be. (I would and have even told my children why people like to drink & while it may feel good at the moment, it takes away from the pleasure of everyone else.)
Being that the Rav actively gets drunk as well, I don’t know how much Rabbonim can do. Speak to your Rav ans ask him what he feels. However, the more we speak openly about this and create positive peer pressure, more and more kehilas will start adapting to a non alcohol style. When looking into bungalows, see if there is a drinking problem. I bet you never even thought about that before, and are stuck being that it’s already mid summer.
On a side note: when one wishes to deal with stress, there are more effective and practacle approaches. When one needs alcohol on a regular basis, that is a clear marker that there is a dependancy problem. The fact that so much is consumed and the need to get drunk is a crisis in itself and needs to be addressed. To say that people are making too big of a deal is A FORM OF DENIAL and rhe problem will only continue to get worse.
Thanks to the author and yeshivah world for taking the time to get this message spoken.July 17, 2008 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #619601bobby57Participant
i see the children of these yeshiva people when they come to israel. these 18 year old fellows come with a drinking habit. shabbos in many a yeshiva, these fellows think it is a mitzvah to get plastered or at least high. what a strange american minhag!!July 17, 2008 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #619602tzveideeroisMember
there are much more serious issues going on in todays bungalow colonies…….if your bungalow colony doesnt have them, then GEVALDIK! but dont make a big dea about ADULTS drinking in shul. it is a healthy outlet, and relieves stress and is no big deal!!July 17, 2008 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #619603
can some one explain why every little thing , one wants us to run to the “rabbonin”? are they our baby sitters?? evrything is put on the “RABBONIM”??..what do you want, every time one does improper thing the nearest rov on the street should jump him ?..and who is going to be that “RABBONIM” ? how about you getting up in your minyan and say what you think about this conduct instead of “RABBONEM”ing!thats what we do when improper things are done. mechoah is evryones responsebility, not just the “RABBONIM”!!July 17, 2008 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #619604gsixMember
“YOU ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OF THIS. THE ONLY REASON THESE GUYS DRINK IS TO GET AWAY FROM THE STRESS OF ALL THE CRISIS IN THEIR LIVES.”
This is the most telling comment of all! Since when is drinking an appropriate outlet for stress and crises in one’s life?
I wonder even one step further…. in today’s perhaps overly stringent, chumra and geder oriented society, perhaps all healthy outlets for stress have been removed, leaving only such things as drinking. A bit of sports for a young man might not be considered bitul torah if it keeps him away from alcoholism……July 17, 2008 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #619605workingmanMember
<b>jent1150</b>: well said. about time people started acting like adults. At this age, they do not need Rabbonim to tell them how to behave.
<b>gsix</b>: I agree with you too. I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with sports. It is a very healthy outlet and I wish the yeshivas would give the kids a little more play time. Any doctor would concur.July 17, 2008 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #619606eliezerMember
glatta-kup: All I can say is, “Al Titzdak Harbei.” Everyone has their own way to be Mekadeish HaShabbos, and unless all YOU do on Shabbos is learn and daven, and eat just a bit more than bread and water L’Kavod Shabbos, then how are YOU being MeKadeish Shabbos? Do you nap? What a waste of this holy day? You should be learning at least 24 of the 26 or so hours that we have Shabbos Kodesh!!
Do you mean to tell me that because I drink a bit more than I usually do for a few minutes that I’m not at all being MeKadeish Shabbos?!
“Holier than thou” people are usually covering up their own guilty shortcomings.
I very carefully stated that I don’t ever approve of real Shikrus, but a bit more than usual, in my mind, is a healthy outlet. Remember, I only said, “a bit more than usual.” Losing control, and staggering around on unsteady legs means a person drank more than they should have. If they don’t know their own limits and can’t control themselves, then I agree they shouldn’t start.July 17, 2008 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #619607
to workingman… a dank…July 17, 2008 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #619608cherryhillbillyMember
What about the “heilige tzuras adam”?July 17, 2008 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #619609Chuck SchwabParticipant
Dare we suggest the terrible lack of tzinius during the summer months may be a factor in all our problems.July 17, 2008 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #619610
to eliezer: in your original posting you said “…if for one hour a week, on Shabbos, the men want to let loose and have a roaring good time, I see nothing wrong with it.” Slightly different than your current focus on “drinking a bit more than I usually do”. Anyway I am glad to see that you have charata from your original comments, although a total u-turn would have been more of the honest way out for you.
“everone has their own way to be mekadesh hashabbos” What issues do you have with chazal’s way?
“and unless all YOU do on Shabbos is learn and daven…then how are YOU being MeKadeish Shabbos? Do you nap? .. etc etc.” Rather than addressing things which i never said, i would have rather seen a more honest approach on your part, namely, to address the things which you did say.
Have a good weekend
P.S. _ I think you can be maikil like the TAZ and use a small amount of chamar medina to be yoitzeh kiddush by day, no need to be machmir as it seems you have been for a real brisker re’viis.July 17, 2008 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #619611
to letter writer , is it safe to assume there are other ,maybe even serious, problems that go on in your place? from our experience…with such hanhagah usually there is more to it, like “kales rosh” etc.so if this bothers you you shouldnt be in such place…”hayechate ish bgecholim, v’raglov los sicovenah ? ” the gemmorah talks about such behavior what it leads toJuly 17, 2008 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #619613jphoneMember
On the lighter side of things. I cant seem to choose the “right” bungalow colonoy for the summer, the “right” kiddush to attend where pritzus and shikrus are rampant or the simcha where the women are dressed provocatively. I seem to miss out on everything 🙁
On a more serious note.
A mans wife has a lot of sway over the way he acts. If the wives of the colony would tell their husbands they didnt approve of the way they stagger out of shul on shabbos morning, perhaps it would lead to a discussion of what might be wrong with it. If a wife speaking to her husband leads nowehere, then these men have a bigger problem than drinking (unless it is the wives that drive them to drink to begin with – ok, thats an attempt – albeit a poor one – at humor).
If the “standing Rav” is an alcoholic how should his “congregants” behave any different, after all, if its good enough for the Rav…..
Left unsaid is, where are the children in all this? Are they sent out of shul prior to the drinking? Do they witness the drinking or just the aftermath? What lesson are the kids learning?
Is the shul an appropriate place to binge drink? The way this is described makes it sound like a frat party, and not a kiddush in shul. In fact, the behavior described is the antithesis of the word kiddush!
Perhaps the non drinkers should start their own baseball team? I would imagine there are at least 9 out of the 40 men who do not indulge in this binge drinking. There must be at least 9 scotch drinkers in the crowd who are not involved in the guzzling of bourbon.
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