July 24, 2008 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #587911Y.W. EditorKeymaster
It seems like so much time and effort is spent these days trying to dictate to others what, where and how they should live their lives or conduct themselves. Does anyone think dictating to others actually works? Stop and think for a second, when was the last time someone dictated something to you and you changed your behavior based on what they said? On the flip side, you can probably more easily remember an incident, situation or behavior that you observed, were moved by and now choose to emulate.
Bottom line: If you are really sincere in your desire to improve Klal Yisrael all you need to do is focus on yourself, others will follow. If your sincerity is based on some need to vent or create an uproar then that is all you will succeed at, creating an uproar.July 24, 2008 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #620166
you are certainly correct
nevertheless, this is an internet forum
there is a certain psychological milieu unique to this very poor and dangerous form of communication. certain accepted modes of behavior that become almost mandatory for posters.
if you want to have a forum or comments section, the best you will be able to do is delete the most offensive posts (and or posters, ie dovdov). you will not be able to turn an internet forum into a group of people around the dinner table.
one other point
sometimes anti-Torah attitudes must be addressed, sometimes in a strong manner, not necessarily to change anyone but because we are Jews, and Sheker must not be allowed to raise it’s head and speak, without being answered by Emes. even if it DOES create an uproarJuly 24, 2008 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #620167amusedreaderParticipant
very well said. unfortunately, I think the responses will be just as they always are; totally judgmental and rude!July 24, 2008 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #620168emesvyatzivParticipant
You think that by DICTATING this letter you are goint to get people to change? if you are really concerned about people dictating what others should do, YOU should not dictate to them what to do, and they will learn from you. DO NOT CREATE AN UPROAR over nothing.July 24, 2008 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #620170nishtgeshtoigenMember
You are assuming that people will see that one is NOT using this type of questionable or even dangerous technology. Pray tell how one can impress by his own behavior on others, in this kind of situation, without addressing the issue directly?
In addition as the possible benefits from much of this technology or for that matter much of it becoming practically as neccesary as the light bulb, automatically gives pause to each thinking that he can personally evaluate his situation…….His, he may propose is different than his friends and thus his friends behavior is discounted.July 24, 2008 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #620171
True screaming and the like will not accomplish anything. But if someone witnesses or is aware of another Yid doing an aveira, be it tzinius, be it kashrus, or be it chillul shabbos, he has a halachic obligation to inform the violator that they are sinning and should stop. (The only exception would be if the witness knows with 100% certainty that the aveira-doer will refuse to heed his words.)July 24, 2008 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #620172
you need to check that Halachah
im fairly sure that it’s the other way, that you should NOT give Tochachah (for an Aveira not meforesh in the Chumash) unless you are reasonably certain that they will listen.July 24, 2008 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #620173iamsamiamMember
I would like to suggest that this issue relates to Rav Dessler zt”l’s idea of nekudas habechira. The way I understand it, he recognizes that we are not malachim nor are we able to jump to be malachim. We are taking steps on the ladder that is “rosho magia hashaima”. Therefore, just because someone sees an individual not doing something properly, or even a significant portion of the community not doing something, correcting them on a communal level may not be helpful and may just embarrass the person or make things worse. Since everyone is on a different level and has a different point at which he or she makes a choice to be makpid on something or not or to keep a particular mitzva, rebuke and improvement must be undertaken by a person at that person’s level – as long as one is continuing to try to improve, that is what is expected. In my view – people need an individual like a rav who can understand them and where they stand and direct them accordingly as to how they can improve themselves individually and what is appropriate.July 24, 2008 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #620174
Sad to say that the way our society has become, this “holier than thou” attitude is turning many people off. The author has it right. Why can people (Josephf?) live and let live? People have different interpretations of hilchos tznius, etc. Let’s face it, just because it was decided in Monroe that silver/gold shoes is not tzniusdik does not make it halacha. This is just one example. Until you put yourself in someone else’s shoes, please don’t preach. Not one person that is busy sticking his/her nose in yenem’s business is perfect. As the saying goes, “physician, heal thyself”.July 24, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #620175
I can double check, but I do believe what I said is correct.
If you get a chance to check first, drop a comment.
Ah dankJuly 24, 2008 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #620176cherrybimParticipant
Unless you know how to give musser, and very few people do, it’s best to only give musser to yourself.
Unless, of course, if you are responding to a YeshivaWorld blog. Then, fire away.July 24, 2008 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #620177lesschumrasParticipant
I agree with the letter writer. It works on many levels. If your manner of dress identifies you as a frum Jew, ( whether it be a black hat or a kipah sruga ) you always have to be concious of your behaviour and actions as you can never know how a positive action could lead someone to become closer to Hashem or, how a negative action could push someone away. How one speaks and acts has a greater impact than what one says.July 24, 2008 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #620178
very well saidJuly 24, 2008 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #620179krunchParticipant
I dissagree with the letter writer, here are a few points:
One of my Roshei Yeshivos just finished giving a shmooze about bochurim coming on time to davening, and I asked him that the vast majority of the bochurim come on time, and the minority that doesn’t won’t start any time soon (this was when I was older, not a young high schooler afraid of getting yelled at), so why bother? He told me that when something is wrong, it is bad for our ruchnius to stand by and let it go. By being passive to other’s improper behavior, we are letting ourselves get affected by it. Therefore, he concluded, he wasn’t giving the shmooze just so the bochurim would change the way they act, but rather for himself; so such improper behavior shouldn’t be something that he got used to and tolerated.
Also, I think the letter writer is fundamentally wrong about people not listening when they are criticized or getting yelled at. Firstly, on an internet forum it is easier to see that actions are attacked and not people- you know that a criticism is not aimed at you personally, because no one knows who you are. Further more, some people benefit by having something pointed out to them. If they are not defensive, they may see something as something they overlooked and didn’t realize. I know this may be a minority, but it still serves a good purpose for someone who wants to improve something that he/she wasn’t aware of previously. Most of us mature adults can see the validity of the points people make regardless of their tone, or CAPS.
Finally, to decry Kol Kories and the sort is decrying the Gedolim who sign them. I acknowledge that there are impostors, who somehow get non sanctioned signatures to appear on their own personal vendetta posters, but the attitude of the letter writer seems to be that everyone should just act their best, and it’s no one’s right to tell others what to do. We are submissive to our Gedolim, and if they indeed “tell us what to do”, or actually sign a Kol Korie with a directive that may be a change to our personal behavior, then you either acknowledge your submissiveness, or you truly think you know better, which I believe is a sad predicament.July 24, 2008 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #620180commonsenseParticipant
well saidJuly 24, 2008 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #620181
Are you saying there is a difference between a Taryag mitzva meforesh in the chumash and one that isn’t?
Perhaps you can elaborate on the difference, if so.July 24, 2008 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #620182levtov32Member
Nothing posted on a website ever changed a person & sorry i am not trying to insult YWN.
but unforturnate that is the truth.
ONe more thing about changing other people, there is a very famous saying ” to change somebody else change yourself first ” that is exactly what i do & i dont care how others dress, act or get bombarded out of thier mind at a simcha.
There is a very famous saying by one of the great man from the previous generation. when you get to SHOMAIM they will not punish you for not being Reb Aron or Reb Moshe or Rav Birnenbaum, they will punish you for not being what you yourself was able to be.July 24, 2008 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #620183
there is a difference. the difference is that different Halochos of Tochachah apply. I dont know why, but it is pusht that that is the case. i am not aware of any other differences.
long answer: yosef you probably dont need this, but if anyone else is interested:
Tefillin is explicitly mentioned in the Chumash as an Asay.
not to embarrass a fellow Yid in public is also a D’Oraisa, but it is not mentioned explicitly as a Lav. it was derived as a D’Oroisa from Psukim by Chazal
a D’Oraisa mitzvah that is meforesh has exactly the same level of stringency as one not meforesh. The only difference that i am aware of is that different Halochos of giving Tochacha apply. There could be other differences that i am not aware of but they are both absolutely equal as far as Chashivus, stringency, etc.July 24, 2008 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #620184
to levtov32 page 1.. thats from rebbe reb zusha..but dont get how pertains here? to “workingman” page 1 can you please explain what the term “holier than thou” means .have heard it used many times,wi’ll not go into who uses it vs. against whom its used. Not the definition of the words, but give us example of what one does that makes him holier than the 2nd guy.and the 2nd guy gets upset and tells the first guy “dont be holier than thou”..by the way we havent come across this term being used by ehrliche bnei torah, so congratulations, your the 1st…or maybe you arent from that group?July 24, 2008 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #620185
Tochachah is i believe a D’Oraisah.
the Halochos of giving Tochachah are D’Rabbonim
i would SPECULATE that at the time the gzairos were promulgated, the general populace was only familiar with the Torah b’ Csav, there were many periods in our history that this was the case.
Therefore it would make sense to institute that for a meforishah mitzvah, Tochachah should be given regardless of whether or not one would listen. Those Mitzvahs that were derived by Chazal, however, would be less known and therefore Tochachah should only be given if there was a reasonable chance they would believe and listen to you.July 24, 2008 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #620186
This is what I found; the requirements to give Tochachah are:
1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)
2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.
3)You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.
It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.
(Please correct any errors you find from me.)July 24, 2008 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #620187oomisMember
The problem with giving mussar has always been (at least in my own mind) the fact that some of that mussar is built on chumrah and not on the actual halacha. I would not want to get mussar on tznius vis a vis my hair covering (I cover it with a sheital, a hat, a snood, or the like), from someone who believes that it is untzniusdig to wear ONLY a sheital without a small hat (to make it obvious that the sheital is false hair), or that my non-seamed stockings are immodest. What you think is immodest may not be congruent to what another frum yid holds as immodest, and the other person’s hashkafa may be halachically sound. I doubt that our Emahos grappled with the legwear problem, as the fashion of their times in the desert most likely did not include the wearing of stockings at all. If someone has a makor that implies otherwise, I sincerely would like to know of it (I am not being facetious), as this is a question I have long had regarding proper dress in the summertime.July 24, 2008 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #620188
oomis – Proper tzinius dress in the summertime is the same as in the wintertime. Additionally, I think you can be very confident that our Emahos covered their legs.July 25, 2008 2:07 am at 2:07 am #620193tromboneParticipant
The problem is that the people who really need the chizuk usually dont attend those events anyway.July 25, 2008 5:58 am at 5:58 am #620196YatzmichMember
Isn’t the letter writer guilty of exactly what he is writing about?July 25, 2008 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #620197anon for thisParticipant
I think it’s important that people closely examine their motivations for telling other people what to do. If one is feeling superior or better than the person he is considering remonstrating with, this will come through in the tochacha & it will almost certainly not be well received. Also one should try to put himself in the other’s place & consider how he’d feel if he were on the receiving end. If he would feel offended, he probably shouldn’t give that tochacha.
I understand that doing this requires a lot of self-awareness & empathy, but I think it’s essential.July 25, 2008 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #620198
jent1150: Allow me to answer your question regarding “holier than thou”. All you need to do is read your reply to me and you should have a <B>VERY, VERY CLEAR</B> understanding of what it means. I don’t know where you get the unmitigated chutzpah to say that I am not and ehrlich yid (as you so obviously are), however, I have heard many many frum yidden using that particular term. With Tisha B’av fast approaching, you should stop and think why the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed. It’s from the sinas chinam that <B>YOU</B> and those like you spew forth.July 25, 2008 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #620199
Michal gave dovid very strong tochacha for uncovering his ANKLES and the only reason she was wrong is because he was doing it for kavod shomayim. If thats how dispicable it was then, you can rest assured that his great-grandmother wasn’t walking around with bare calves even if it meant she wasn’t going to be the most comfortable person in the world. I’m sure she found away to cover herself without stockings (maybe she used fig leaves). If you want to sacrifice olam haba for comfort, thats your own business, BUT DON’T YOU EVER EVER BE MOTZEE SHEM RAH ON MY GREAT-GRANDMOTHER LIKE THAT!!July 25, 2008 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #620200
However, I think the best way to get people to do what you want is to inform the Gedolim that they should make a takanah to suit our whims. Personally when it comes time for my daughter to get married, I’m going to have a gadol make a takanah that the top guy in yeshiva has to marry her. (even if he’s 14 and she’s 37- which will make all you liberals happy and they’ll be rich( NASI will probably give them enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their lives- I mean enough money to build a bayis ne’eman biyisrael)July 25, 2008 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #620201July 28, 2008 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #620204
to josepf and feivel ..see shulchen urech ohrech chaim 608 seuf 2 ramah and mishne berureh 3 and on..July 28, 2008 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #620205
to working man..we have yet to come accros a ehrliche yid use the term “holier than thou” it seeped into your vocabulary from the goishe gass, so please you really had me “scared” with such strong psak, “un-migitated chutzpah”. and yes there is such a thing as holier than the next person. isnt a big tzaddik bigger madreigeh than the one less than him (and of course a real tzaddik considers himself the lowest ..)and so on so what kind of cliche’ is this? so pipe down…July 29, 2008 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #620206
my dear jent1150: Allow me once again to answer your silly condescending comments. You see, went I went to Yeshiva (yes, one of the big ones), they provided us with something. It’s called a secular education. We actually learned to speak complete english sentences. Therefore, many of us have heard that term many many times. You (and the “we” that you mention) never learned how to do that. However, I do take solace in knowing that you are a very ehrlicher yid. Much more so than I will ever be. But at least I know that Derech Eretz Kadma LeTorah. That’s something that you and your “we” friends will NEVER understand.August 1, 2008 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #620211
working man..let us answer your “intellligent..”. we went to ysehivah, the size is irrelevant, they provided with something, its called toireh with yiras shomayin etc,(not that we meet those qualifications as you meet your “secular education”qualif.) as opposed to your big yeshivah that provided you with something called secular education (whats that, never heard of it)besides that, they also taught us to write complete sentences (which we are not particular to use), which is completely unimportant to be a ehrlicha yid but only important to conduct business with your fellow countrymen,.again, yes we hard the term “holier than thou,” have secular education too (dont need it to have heard it, so dont know why you say have secular ed ,to hear the “term holier than thou”,but we mentioned that never heard it used by bnei toireh ,lakewood, belz, telz, biyon,satmar etc.. you take solace to know we’re ehrlicher yid is irrelevant to this discussion …if you dont mind can you explain how derech eretz kadma l’torah comes in here? ..we think you should put your “secular education” aside and learn some anoveh(eikev anoveh, yiesh..see mesilas yeshorim)August 1, 2008 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #620212illini07Member
Well-said, workingman. Torah, they have. Derech Eretz and Ben Adam L’Chavero, not so much.
And jent, speaking in cohesive and complete sentences is not only useful for conducting business. For instance, when you learn b’chavrusa, and don’t speak coherently, you will have problems. Additionally, people perceive your level of intelligence in large part based upon how you speak and write. If you are ok with going through life perceived to be less intelligent than you actually are (and I do believe that you are intelligent, albeit slightly misguided), then that’s fine. But it also makes communicating with you and exchanging ideas nearly impossible. How can you expect anyone to see what you believe is the errors of their ways if they can’t comprehend half of what you wrote? From a purely logical standpoint, it makes no sense. The only things that are always clear in your posts are your attacks on others.August 1, 2008 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #620213oomisParticipant
“oomis – Proper tzinius dress in the summertime is the same as in the wintertime. Additionally, I think you can be very confident that our Emahos covered their legs.”
I never said they didn’t cover their legs (kindly re-read what I wrote). They apparently wore long robes or dresses to the ground(as was the style in that region of the world for most women) which do cover the legs entirely. That does not mean however, that they wore STOCKINGS or even socks. And to respond to the comment made by Head in the Sand, Michal dared to give Tochacha to THE KING (she was out of line to do so) out of the misguided concern that he was belittling the malchus. From all I have been taught in Yeshivah, she erred. And she was punished for not showing proper kovod hamelech. And I would never dream of being motzi shem ra on anyone, much less your great-grandmother! It is not for you to decide if I gave up my Olam Haba for comfort. If so chas v’sholom, I will be in very good company with some very choshuvah women, rebbetzins, baalos chesed, and oskei tzorchei tzibur, who like me do not wear socks in the heat, though we cover up otherwise. As to the grape leaves remark – please remember that Ha-Shem’s concept of human tznius originally entailed the wearing of NO clothing. The unclothed body is not inherently untzniusdig. It was the AVEIRA of Chava and Odom that changed those dynamics forever.
Instead of trying to prove to me how choshuv it is for ankles to be covered up, why can we not agree that there is a machlokess on this very subject, the Chazon Ish was machmir in his views, and the Mishnah Berurah does not necessarily agree with his sevara. I am not arguing with you, because I respect your right to follow that derech. I follow a different Rov’s opinion and ailu v’ailu divrei Elokim Chayim.
I have total respect for any woman (AND MAN) who dress b’tznius, as they understand the concept and as their rabbonim teach them. The danger lies in your deciding that your understanding or your rebbe’s/yeshivah’s understanding is the ONLY correct view, and therefore anyone who does not adhere to that view is not “frum enough.” There are people who have committed terrible chilulei Ha-Shem in their zealous attempt to bend the world to their religious observance. I am just saying that there are shivim panim l’Torah, and maybe someone else’s view is as valid as yours, though you probably do not see it that way.August 3, 2008 4:21 am at 4:21 am #620214
to illini07..yes ,yes what you want to understand we see you understand pretty good..the truth hurts..also we learn with our chavrusos yiddis..didnt even occur to you, huh?…vos tit zuch with lo shini es leshonom..(before you start crying like the other poster way back, ‘WE ARE IN ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY’,)when not addressing fellow countrymen..also also we who learne shulchen urech a few times and TRY,not that we do (we are refering to comment by you or sinisent way back..) to adhere ,are msiguided..and you with all your ” anti” comments thruout , are on the right ‘guide..and remeber look throut posting how many posters have this shita of you yes they are misguided by every seuf in shulchen urech and you are properly ‘guided’ by the the ‘holy’ seclar studies that giude you (we refer thae mismash of oir v’choshech.)August 3, 2008 4:43 am at 4:43 am #620215just meParticipant
Just a note, an aquaintence of mine recieved a psak form R’ Moshe Feinstien (you’ve all heard of him I’m sure) about socks for women. He said that as long as her knees were covered, even when she sat, she could wear ankle socks. Knee-his, thigh-his or full stockings were not nessasary. So, if an over zealous person were to have gone over to her to give her tochacha for her untzniyus, who would be right? Also, how many of you would listen if someone felt, in no uncertain terms, that your car was too flashy and inappropriate for a frum Jew? Would you run out and buy a more “Yeshivish” car?
While we are on the topic, how come when I got married, over 25 years ago, EVERY woman wore pastels and other bright colors? Any one wearing black was considered not dressed properly. This went for all weddings, Yeshivish, Chasidish etc. Are we truly better now? I don’t think so.August 3, 2008 8:35 am at 8:35 am #620216
“Nothing posted on a website ever changed a person & sorry i am not trying to insult YWN.
but unforturnate that is the truth.”
speak for yourself. I, for one, have learned quite a bit and have taken to heart some of what i have learned. For example, a while ago, a newly married person spoke about being mesameach a chassan and kalla by a simchah. His letter was well expressed and the point he made was one i never thought of, but hope to implement in the future.August 3, 2008 8:51 am at 8:51 am #620217
I (mir) for one, really enjoy your comments and “chap hano’ah” how you answer those that need to be answered. But often, I cannot follow what you’re saying because of unfinished sentenses. It would be helpful if you take an extra minute or two to review your post to see if it is legible. we would all gain from your words more.
Thank youAugust 3, 2008 10:13 am at 10:13 am #620218lesschumrasParticipant
Why do you assume that all frum Jews speal Yiddish? Not everybody came from Eastern Europe and others come from backgrounds that didn’t speak Yiddish. For example, my friends son is now chareidi, but, since he spent 12 years in a MO yeshiva, speaks fluent Hebrew but no Yiddish. In reading your recent post, you seem to take pride in using as little grammar, punctuation and spelling as possible. However, if you make it difficult for a reader to grasp your point ( including using Yiddish at critical points ) how do you expect to make any impact or to explain your position?
I don’t speak Yiddish as my father’s family came here in 1870, was completely assimilated and my father became a baal tshuva at age 38 when he and my mother msrried.August 4, 2008 12:05 am at 12:05 am #620220
jent, just wondering…do the ehrleche yiddin such as yourself believe in Pirkei Avot…like “hevei dan lchaf zchut?” or “al tistakel bakankan elah bmah sheyeish bo?”…or “hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot?” or “al tadin et chaveircha ad shetagiah limkomo? or …just wondering?August 4, 2008 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #620221
TO IRHAKODESH…CAN YOU TAKE EACH PRAT THAT YOU MENTIONED FROM PIRKEI AVOT AND EXPLAIN HOW PERTAINS HERE ? EG:HEVEI DAN KAL ADAM L’KAF ZESCHUS..YOU ‘THIS AND THIS’ WHY ARNT YOU DAN LKAF ZECHUS? SO WE CAN UNDERSATAND WHATS THE PROBLEMAugust 5, 2008 12:46 am at 12:46 am #620222
I’d be glad to since I would truly love to be dan you l’chaf zchut, but am having a hard time doing so.
hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot and Hevei dan lchaf zchut.
“we went to ysehivah, the size is irrelevant, they provided with something, its called toireh with yiras shomayin etc,(not that we meet those qualifications as you meet your “secular education”qualif.) as opposed to your big yeshivah that provided you with something called secular education”
what all these posters are against is guys like rabbi of maskilim, cantor esg, “not so’ pashute yid, less chumres,sinisent etc (b’h havent heard from him awhile so we dont have to put up with another un- chareidi, but we REALLY wish him health and gut yohr) who knimrod gibbor tzeid, come on ehrliche toireh site and mock when heilige gedolim talk about tznoius etc., or when meran hagoan hatzaddike elishev issues issur to certain weeklies (article chareidy weeklys may 3 ,08) they mock..(because truth hurts) and so with every issue that they give hisoirrous drasha…
to willi..we thing he can add your name to that list..
WE’LL STICK TO THE CD WITH THE NATURAL COMPUTER CHIPS THE HEILIGE BASHEFER IMPLANTED IN MY BRAIN. BY US ‘CHAREDI’, WE DONT READ NO MATTER HOW CLEAN A BOOK IS, IF ITS FROM KOIFRIM, ETC. SFORIM SAY JUST THE WORDS HAVE HASHPOEH ON THE READER , NOW ,NOW TAKE IT EASY, YOU JUST GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT THE BAR ILLAN CD PASKENS FOR YOU…BUT THIS IS THE SHITA OF HEILIGE ‘MYTH BEARING’ REVISIONIST’ REBBES ….”
In my humble opinion these maamarot do not seem to be following hevei kabeil et kol adam bsever panim yafot and hevei dan lkaf zchut
hevei dan lchaf zchut
It is an all around feeling that I have that you feel that Jews who don’t do what you do are lesser Jews. – Am I wrong that you feel that way?
al tistakel bakankan elah bmah sheyeish bo
This refers to all of the statements about hats and jackets and crocs. I am sure that HKBH cares more about what is in people’s neshomas then what they are wearing.
al tadin et chaveircha ad shetagiah limkomo
I was once at a funeral where a modern dressed man had a long grey ponytail and a kippah on his head. Most of the people there were chassidishe and chareidim. One of them walked up to him, flicked the ponytail and said mockingly “vos is dos”? in a very condescending way. The fellow calmly said. My brother has cancer and I am giving him this hair as a gift.August 5, 2008 8:48 am at 8:48 am #620223
to ir hakodesh..either you dont know the meaning of those terms or we dont understand vi kumt hodo zu bodu .so we’ll try to take each one . your first parag..’you’ll try to dan me l’kaf zecus’. since that term is noigay as what you think of the sub. which in this case is mir, so you dont have to dan me l’kaf zechus since i dont know you and you dont me,also couldnt care less what you think of me. mir thinks that we dont have what to be embarrased from you,so you dont have to be matriach to dan me l’kaf zechus (by the way ‘dan l’kaf zechus’ is for the benfit of the ‘dan’ not the ‘nidon’ too long pshetel..if any one will volunteer?) now 4:30 am (yes time stamp we’ll read later but thats when were sending it)have to go to learn,we cant use bar illan cd’s so we need to fill up with the real b’kious not falshe b’kious from mokiros hatmayim so ei’yhs next post we’ll continueAugust 5, 2008 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #620224
to jent…you are right, and i don’t need the pshetel…i understand that the ‘dan l’kaf zecht’is for the dan and not nidon…i thank you from absolving me from being matriach to dan you…how silly of me…we’ll leave all of that to the KBH. looking forward to hearing the continuation…August 5, 2008 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #620225
oh, so thats it. i was goint to ask you jent and all the others, if you spend so much time here, when do you have time to learn?August 5, 2008 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #620226
to ir hakodesh page 3..cont’d.. you say ‘have mekabel es kol huadom b’saver panim yofos…’ we dont even start to comprehend how this memre pertains here, like we said ,hodu to bodu..dont even know how to start refuting some thing that doesnt even make sense.. we’ ll try.. this memreh means when we walk on the street and greet somebody, which we have to do, even,O fellow citizen no matter who(thats what we do…reb yochenon ben zakai…v’afilu shel akim….)you do it with a smile , see also ketuboh 112b (?)’. u’lven shinaim mai chalov..’or anywhere you greet someone should be pleasantly….so what has this memrai got to do when one has a debate with somebody, and tells that somebody , in our case, that he is anti…we’re not going to rehash. mr ir hakodesh you seem to have resently joined, so you dont know what’s it all about. we’ve followed the postings of these signers 3/4 year, every time there is mentioned something b’noigayah anti toirah, d’hina,reform,mayor koch ,blind rabbi, all those articles they jump on the same bandwagon and uneqivocally support the anti toirah band . the other guys say ‘melamed zechus’,which is completly not shayech, but thats a pshetel unto itself.maybe another post.so if you dont know whats it all about vos sprung eir arein. now we dont know where you stand , charedi are anti ,so pick your side ..but this has nothing to do with ‘have mekable es…’ while we are at it ‘al tarbeh sicho im isha ‘ you are also such a ‘kenoah’ for? we can go thruh pirkai avos and ask on quite a few memres and ask the same..are you a ‘KANOIEH’ for thse memres too or just ‘THE TRUTH HURTS ? SO IF WE’LL GET AROUN WE’LL TAKLE THE NEXT.. ONE THING NOW..YOU SAY ONLY THE RIBONI SHEL OILOM KNOWS WHATS IN A YIDS HEART..ALSO HEIB NIT OHN TZU FARSTEIN…VE KUMPT DO AREIN?SO LETS SAY WHEN ONE SEES SOMEONE OIVER AVAIREH WE SHOULD JUST IGNORE AND SAY ‘ ONLY…’ IF YES SO YOU DONT KNOE OF THE MIZVAH KOLYIROEL AREIVIM ZEH L’ZAH..SO MIR STUMPED ON THAT ONE TO…AND THE NEXT..AND THE NEXT…August 5, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #620227rabbiofberlinParticipant
I kind of perused this site and I must say that I have absolutely no idea what jent 1150 writes. A lot of it is funny but I still do not know what he is writing! I think we’ll need rashi and toisefos!
However, I bow before his bekius, as he is the only one who was able to quote the Remo (Tof reish ches-608)who clearly writes that ONLY in something that is MEFUROSH in the torah -spelled out- are you obliged to be “mochiach”. On other mitzvos d’oraisa, you do NOT have to be mochiach! Even then ,only if you know that they will accept it, otherwise, it is “mutov shejehe shoggegim”.
An example, if you see someone light a fire on shabbos, this is mefurosh, However, other melochos would not come under this as they are not spelled out in the Torah. Please, all of you check out the remo.August 6, 2008 1:37 am at 1:37 am #620228
jent, as far as how i feel about pirkei avot and al tarbeh sichah im haisha, i have no problem with it since i’m not mr. irhakodesh but mrs. irhakodesh. i guess that that ends this conversation:)! have and easy fast.
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