Over 70% of Orthodox Jews are Chareidim

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  • #603377
    mermaid
    Member

    Today, over 70% of Orthodox Jews are Ultra-Orthodox (Chareidim.) So stated a professor in a demographics course. Apparently the Chareidi birth rate far far outpaces that of modern orthodoxy. And this has been the case for the past 50 or so years. Where can I research **current** demographics information on Orthodox Judaism?

    #1098053
    Naysberg
    Member

    It figures. Also, don’t forget that traditional Orthodoxy has had a tremendous and ongoing influx of Baalei Teshuvas that cannot be discounted. (Much much greater than departures.) Aside from BT’s, it seems that there is even a large amount of formerly MO yidden that have become Chareidi.

    #1098054
    takahmamash
    Participant

    It’s my understanding that 65% of demographics professors make up statistics on the spot, so I would have to see the professor’s sources before agreeing with his statement.

    #1098055
    writersoul
    Member

    I will agree with that statement only once someone defines, once and for all, the definition of the word Chareidi.

    #1098056
    Naysberg
    Member

    They sold out 42,000 seats for Asifa at Citi Field a week early. (How often do the Mets EVER sell out the stadium?!) They could have easily sold another 10,000 seats. And it was men only. If women were allowed (and there was space), it would have been an asifa of over 100,000! And that’s Chareidi Jews from just one metropolitan area in one part of one country. And even in that locality many Chareidim wouldn’t come because of scheduling conflicts, illness, too old, too young / children, absence that time from the city or away on business or pleasure, laziness, philosophical disagreement with the asifa, they don’t touch the internet anyways, family functions or wedding or a myriad of other reasons. Figure over 350,000 Chareidim in just the New York Metro area. Figure that many more in cities (Lakewood, Los Angeles, Chicago and many large and small towns) all over the rest of the United States. Add in Canada. Eretz Yisroel. Europe. Australia. South America. You’re talking large numbers.

    #1098057
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Figures lie and liars figure. “70% of Orthodox Jews are Ultra-Orthodox” is phoney bologna wishful thinking.

    #1098058
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Yo, trolly-trolls, I don’t get this. Who even cares if you are right or not? And if you are, what point are you trying to make? That we ultra-Orthodox have an evil plan to take over the world by swarming?

    #1098059
    writersoul
    Member

    Naysberg: The fact that they are sold out only means that they sold all those tickets for yeshivos and shuls to resell. I doubt that they have all 40,000 tickets sold to individuals by now.

    In the general scheme of things, also, 40,000 is NOT that many people.

    #1098060

    Boruch Hashem we are finally being noticed and all are welcome to join and continue making a kiddush Hashem…..and for those who can’t admit and start fargining, i would recommend reading some of the books by Rabbi Shalom Arush and translated by Rabbi Lazar Brody…and yes check out and learn who Rabbi Brody is and what he started out as.

    #1098061
    NCO Chassid
    Member

    In answer to the first post’s question:

    Where can I research **current** demographics information on Orthodox Judaism?

    One of the best informed researchers on this topic is Dr. Ira M. Sheskin:

    Dr. Ira M. Sheskin is the Director of the Jewish Demography Project of the Sue and Leonard Miller Center for Contemporary Judaic Studies at the University of Miami.

    Then Marvin Schick of Avi Chai published (in 2009) a census of Jewish Day Schools in North America.

    Someone else had the idea of counting the number of chassidim in the US by looking at US Census numbers for families whose primary language is Yiddish and who have small kids.

    There is also the North American Jewish Data Bank.

    #1098062
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    A good start is to look at actual figures- namely the voting patterns of Israeli jews. Looking at that- the statement by this so-called Professsor is wrong. The chareidi lists (agudah and degel hatorah)have never received more than about 5% of the population. The religious zionists lists, in all their permutations, have consistently outvoted the “chareidi” lists,sometimes by a large percentage, so that clearly indicates that the chareidi public is not more numerous than the other orthodox people. The question is what “shas” is. Some call it chareidi- making the Professor’s possibly correct- but many of the votes of “shas’ is by non-practicing sefardim- which is reflected in the different successes of shas ni recent years (17 seats, 11 seats) so this professors opinion is not backed up by the actual figures. In the US, who knows? no empiric, accurate way of counting is possible.

    #1098063
    Patri
    Member

    I would be very surprised if chareidim don’t represent, at least, well into the 80%’s.

    #1098064
    midwesterner
    Participant

    To those who say that 40,000 is not a large number, I will ask a question. How many events in the history of Klal Yisroel (in America at least) have sold 40,000 tickets for one single location? The number is exactly Zero!!

    The Siyum Hashas was scattered all over NY/NJ last time. (Continenetal Arena in NJ, MSG and Felt Forum in NYC) Even this time, it has been marketing for YEARS and selling tickets for MONTHS to a national audience of men, women, and children. It is a feel good event, that sells itself to large segments of Daf Yomi participants all across the fruited plain. And they are holding between 40-50K sold so far, if I hear correctly.

    This on the other hand, is gonna be a large mussar schmooz, which people don’t like to listen to if they can avoid it (see today’s daf, Tamid 28a, for a lesson about that). It has been publicized for a couple of months, tickets have been available for about a week and a half now. No women or bochurim under age 19 are invited. AND THEY’RE SOLD OUT!!! That is hugely impressive, and a tribute to the respect that many have for America’s Mashgiach.

    #1098065
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Awesome. There are over a billion Muslims and over two billion Christians, so apparently we’ve still got ways to go. And hey, when Avraham was around he was quite the tiny minority, wasn’t he? “The whole world on one side and him on the other…” Point is, last I checked we don’t care much for numbers like these.

    #1098066
    Patri
    Member

    rabbiofberlin: You are incorrectly comparing the UTJ and Shas to the Chilonim. The OP is comparing them to MO/DL. You should only be looking at the DL-only parties. You also need to consider the fact that a lot of Chareidim in EY do not vote al pi shitta (i.e. Eidah, Brisk, etc.)

    #1098067
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Patri, Nasberg, mermaid – can you answer my question? I find this thread very bizarre…

    yitay: Type 3?

    #1098068
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    OneOfMany – From this post alone yes, although from others it looks as though some might be approaching type 2. Grr :@

    #1098069
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    patri- i did compare the “chareidi” votes to the religious zionist- the chareidi lists consistently polled less over the last sixty years than the religious zionist lists. ‘shas’ is in the middle and ,depending what they are considered, the chareidi number goes up.

    #1098070
    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m surprised no one here has claimed 100% yet.

    #1098071
    Naysberg
    Member

    The big mass influx of Russians to Israel (many many of whom are goyim – but that is a whole ‘nother discussion) diluted the vote and made everyone else – religious and irreligious Jews – be a smaller portion. Nevertheless, and despite this dilution, the Chareidi parties have virtually maintained their seating strenghth in the Parliment while everyone became smaller. So that is an indication of greater growth among Chareidim.

    #1098072
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Salute to Israel Day Parade gets over 100,000 people a year almost all are MO since almost no charedim go.

    There was a protest in Washington DC on the national lawn for Israel in 2003 I think, Over 300,000 jews (mostly MO) attended, While you could claim the Salute to Israel parade is free, It cost money and time to get to Washington DC. (More than $10 and more than 4 hours of your time)

    Also what is charedi, How do you count Chabad. Does someone who drives to a Chabad shul count as Charedi, but goes every Shabbos.

    There are very few Charedim outside NY area (Lakewood counts as NY) and Baltimore, Miami as its almost impossible to be one as thing as Chalav Yisroel are hard to get and Yeshiva education not available

    #1098073
    Brooklineborn
    Participant

    It is my understanding that men and parents of schools have been voluntold to attend Citifield. Ticket purchases are required and yeshivas have mandated attendance.

    #1098074
    writersoul
    Member

    THEY ARE NOT SOLD OUT. They may end up sold out soon, but not yet.

    Think of it as wholesale (the asifa committee) selling to the retailers (shuls and schools). The wholesalers can say they’re sold out but many of those tickets were not yet actually sold,

    I dunno, if they were sold out, they probably would no longer be selling them at my brother’s school and my shul.

    #1098075
    dash™
    Participant

    To those who say that 40,000 is not a large number, I will ask a question. How many events in the history of Klal Yisroel (in America at least) have sold 40,000 tickets for one single location? The number is exactly Zero!!

    When was the last time a venue of this size had tickets being sold for $10?

    #1098076
    yytz
    Participant

    Ms. Critique: I’ve read all their (Rav Arush’s and Brody’s) books, and I’ve read Rav Brody’s blog for years, and they’ve never said a negative word about the MO, or said anything about being charedi rather than MO. In fact, Rav Brody periodically features MO musicians or other people. When he toured the US recently, he even spoke to non-Jews and at non-Orthodox shuls (apparently got a heter from R’ Ovadia Yosef). Although their own community is charedi, they’ve made it clear what’s important is not how you dress or what Orthodox shul you go to.

    Charedim are destined to be the vast majority of Orthodox Jews because of the birthrate, but that doesn’t mean MO is doomed. Also, what is charedi and MO will change with time. For example, there’s apparently a growing phenomenon of “post-charedim” or moderate charedim who may look charedi but don’t buy into all the beliefs and practices — daas torah, for example. And many MO are becoming more stringent without necessarily wearing a black hat.

    #1098077
    Naysberg
    Member

    zsdad, The Israeli parades and protests are mostly frei non-Orthodox.

    yytz: There are a whole lot of former-MO’s who are today Charedi. Daven and affiliatedd with Chareidi shuls, sent to Chareidi Yeshivos and even often wear black hats.

    #1098078
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    zsdad, The Israeli parades and protests are mostly frei non-Orthodox.

    And where do you get this information.

    Why not go to the Israel Day Parade and you will see who marches, its mostly Modern Orhtodox Day Schools. The largest contigent at the parade is Yeshiva of Flatbush.

    While there are non religous at the Parade, they are by far the minority

    #1098079
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Can someone define “charedi”?

    #1098080
    Sam2
    Participant

    Apushatayid: Sure. Chareid El D’var Hashem.

    #1098082
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My definition of Charedi are either Chassidim or Litvish (Lakewood and the Like) people.

    Chabad and Chofetz Chaim IMO would count as Charedi

    #1098083
    musser zoger
    Participant

    Chareidi comes from the Latin word chardos meaning “narrow minded and intolerant.”

    #1098084

    who cares what you define yourself as or what you wear?

    “That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it.”

    #1098085
    akuperma
    Participant

    If you use a narrow definition of “Orthodox” (for example, man always covers his head even at work, married women likewise – perhaps including refraining from discussing secular business and politics and Shabbos), and then use a broad definition of Hareidim (holds that if halacha conflicts with Israeli law, which includes orders in the army, halacha must be followed at all all times) – then I wouldn’t be surprised is 80% of “Orthodox” are “Hareidi”.

    But if you include as Orthodox people who merely refuse to go to work on Shabbos and don’t do malachos on Shabbos, hold by checking ingedients not just checking hechsherim, wear a yarmulke only for davening, etc.) and limit Hareidim to those who refuse to participate in any aspect of the secular economy, insist on dressing in a way that isolates them from the rest of the world, etc. – the the Hareidi percentage falls.

    #1098086
    avhaben
    Participant

    Chareidi just means someone who follows the generic default traditional manner of being a frum Jew.

    #1098087
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    musser zoger – rotfl

    (not that i agree, it was just funny :D)

    #1098088
    musser zoger
    Participant

    yitayningwut,

    Was meant to be funny.Chareidim in general are not narrow minded and intolerant. But seriously, if all I knew about Chareidim was from YWN and the coffee room I would think them being narrow minded and intolerant is a generous description. Some on YWN who indicate they adhere to Chareidi Yiddishkeit come off as downright mean and intolerant of differing views of Orthodox Judaism. a non-frum Jew would be repulsed from and not drawn to Yiddishkeit.

    #1098089
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    New rule: only 1 modifier per noun.

    #1098090
    apushatayid
    Participant

    If one incorporates all definitions, then for sure 70% is charedi. Probably more.

    #1098091
    writersoul
    Member

    “There was a protest in Washington DC on the national lawn for Israel in 2003 I think, Over 300,000 jews (mostly MO) attended, While you could claim the Salute to Israel parade is free, It cost money and time to get to Washington DC. (More than $10 and more than 4 hours of your time)”

    Hey, my uncle and cousins went to that one, and they’re not MO.

    At least, I don’t think they are. Seeing as I’m utterly perplexed as to the meaning of chareidi and MO and dati leumi and Zionist and stuff like that, I don’t know what they are. I don’t even know what I am, and quite frankly, I don’t care.

    Please don’t define those terms for me. I don’t think we need all those labels.

    #1098092
    yytz
    Participant

    For men, charedi means an Orthodox Jew who wears a black hat or at least a white shirt with a black velvet kippah. For women, it means either being married to a man who fits that description, or for unmarried women, identifying with a charedi community (Yeshivish or Chassidic). Often, for women it also means having somewhat stricter tzniut standards (ie, always wearing tights, longer skirts, etc.)

    For men, Modern Orthodox just means someone who belongs to an Orthodox shul, and identifies as Orthodox, but doesn’t wear a charedi uniform. (Not all who belong to Orthodox shuls are Orthodox.) For women, Modern Orthodox means being married to one of these men, or for single women, considering themselves a part of the MO community.

    In Israel, if you belong to an Orthodox shul but don’t wear the charedi uniform then you’re dati leumi, national religious (unless you’re not very nationalistic, then you might use the term modern Orthodox).

    There are many other dimensions of the charedi/MO definition (chumros, mysticism/rationalism, hashkafa related to israel, careers, education, science, da’as torah, feminism, etc.) but since the most visible thing is clothing (and which shul you belong to), that’s the main thing people will use to put you in a category. When you get beyond the clothing, it’s all mixed up and many people will look MO in one dimension and charedi in another.

    #1098093
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “For men, charedi means an Orthodox Jew who wears a black hat or at least a white shirt with a black velvet kippah”

    Hmmm…This back hat, is it brim up or down? Pinched or unpinched? What if one substitutes a streimel on shabbos, does that constitute an extra level of charediness or perhaps detract from it? This white shirt, does french cuffed add or detract from the charediness? white on white a mayyla or a chisaron? and the yarmulka, what of one chooses to wear a black kippa that is not velvet? or a blue velvet one? would calling it a kippa detract from the charediness of a person? would calling it a kappel or yarmulka increases ones charedi factor in any way?

    #1098095
    Naysberg
    Member

    Wow, my numbers need revising. They’ve rented another arena and now sold out 65,000 seats for a men-only gathering! Double that if women could’ve come. Add 25% for the children under 19 who aren’t being given tickets and the elderly and infirm. Figure if even 2/3 of Chareidim in the metro area are attending the Asifa (its probably less than 2/3), then you need to add an additional 50% to the numbers for those who chose to skip it or couldn’t come. (50% is the missing third.) Count all the Chareidim from other cities and countries.

    #1098096
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Maybe where you live. In most of the US, there are unfortunate Amei Ha’aratzim who consider themselves Orthodox that make up most of the Orthodox populations.

    #1098097
    Csar
    Member

    According to a University of Manchester study, not only will the Ultra-Orthodox be a majority of Orthodoxy but will be a majority of all Jewry:

    ‘Majority of Jews will be Ultra-Orthodox by 2050’

    23 Jul 2007

    Ultra-orthodox British and American Jews are set to outnumber their more secular counterparts by the second half of this century according to research by a University of Manchester academic. Historian Dr Yaakov Wise says the increase in religious British Jewry – recognisable by their traditional dress – is now outstripping the decline in the overall Jewish population which has been shrinking by one to two per cent each year since the 1950s. European ultra-orthodox Jewry is expanding more rapidly than at any time since before World War Two. Almost three out of every four British Jewish births, he says are ultra- orthodox who now account for 45,500 out of a total UK Jewish population of around 275,000 or 17 per cent. According to Dr Wise and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem’s Professor Sergio Della Pergola, Israel is experiencing similar changes. Dr Wise said: “If current trends continue there is going to be a profound cultural and political change among British and American Jews – and it’s already well on the way. “This is in spite of demographic studies which show that the non-Ultra Orthodox Jewish population is flat or falling. “And you can see evidence for this in communities across the UK: in Greater Manchester for example the Ultra-orthodox number 8,500 which is almost a third of the 28,000 Jews in the region. “This is up from around one quarter only ten years ago. “Approximately half of all the Jewish under fives in Greater Manchester are Ultra-orthodox. “And in Greater London the Ultra-orthodox now account for 18 per cent of the Jewish population, up from less than 10 per cent in the early 1990s.” He added: “My work and that of Professor Sergio Della Pergola reveal a similar picture in Israel. “By the year 2020, the Ultra-orthodox population of Israel will double to one million and make up 17 per cent of the total population. “A recent Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics report also found that a third of all Jewish pupils will be studying at haredi schools by 2012, prompting emergency meetings at the Education Ministry. “In America too, where the Jewish population is stable or declining, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish numbers are growing rapidly. “Professor Joshua Comenetz from The University of Florida says the Ultra-orthodox population doubles every 20 years, which he says may make the Jewish community not only more religiously observant but more politically conservative. “Comenetz estimated the Ultra-orthodox population in 2000 was about 360,000, 7.2 per cent of the approximately 5 million Jews in the U.S. “But in 2006, demographers now estimate the number had grown to 468,000 or 9.4 per cent.” NOTES FOR EDITORS The UK figures were based on census data plus the regular monitoring of Jewish births by academics in Manchester and Leeds.

    #1098099
    Csar
    Member

    (Mods: I shortened it this time.) From tomorrow’s NY Times:

    I deleted it because it is most probably a copyright violation.

    Mod, as long as it isn’t the full article (i.e. less than 50%), it isn’t a copyright violation. It falls under “fair use”. Websites post partial articles from mainstream news sites all the time, including the main page of YWN.

    Can I repost?

    I’m not a lawyer. no.

    #1098101
    Csar
    Member

    Okay, hopefully this’ll pass muster. My own summary; no quoting from the article.

    It says there are 1.1 million Jews in New York City (which has the largest Jewish population in the world outside Israel and the city represents a third of all American Jewry), and of those 493,000 are Orthodox and another 220,000 are Russian Jews.

    In 2012, 40% of all Jews in NYC are Orthodox (up from 33% in 2002), but 74 percent of all Jewish children in the city are Orthodox.

    It also notes that while the Orthodox community is growing and becoming more religious (and isolated), the non-Orthodox are shrinking, becoming less religious and more and more don’t even identify themselves with any stream of Judaism.

    #1098102
    Feif Un
    Participant

    I didn’t read through this thread when it started, but am reading it now. There was a big mistake earlier. It was stated that if women would have been allowed at the asifa, the crowd would have doubled. This is not true. If women were allowed, the chassidim would not have come, and the stadium would have been half empty. Over 2/3 of the crowd was chassidish.

    Also, it said add 25% for kids under 19. I saw pictures of chassidish kids well under 19 coming to the asifa.

    #1098103
    Sam2
    Participant

    Who cares? We don’t count Jews.

    #1098104
    Naysberg
    Member

    Sam: Chatzi Shekel?

    Feif: You missed the point. *IF* women would’ve come, you would’ve needed at least a third stadium, instead of just the two stadiums they rented. I’m not saying women should’ve come and mixed with the men, just if the women of the men attendees would’ve been there, it would have been double the size. And people under 19 years old were strongly discouraged from getting a ticket beforehand. Its true some children came, but a relatively small number. If they would’ve bussed in the school children from the Yeshivas and Beis Yaakov’s, even four stadiums would be too small for the Chareidim from the New York Metropolitan Area. If the Chareidim from around the country flew in, forget it, you would’ve probably needed to rent out the entire Island of Manhattan to accomodate all of them. (Okay, maybe the last sentence is a slight exaggeration.)

    #1098105
    Sam2
    Participant

    Naysberg: Chatzi Shekel is the source. It’s Assur Min Hatorah to count Jews without purpose.

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