overturn a beis din decision

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  • #619023
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    I’m in trouble now. On 1/15/17, my wife took me to a beis din. The discussions leading up to the Beis Din were all about whether I had to issue a Get or not. My stupidity had me sign a bunch of agreement forms; which I didn’t even bother to read. Instead of ruling on the Get, which I refused to go along with, the Beis Din ruled along the lines of they were going to seize nearly all my assets; force me to move out of our marital home and have me pay my wife hefty alimony while the divorce was ongoing. My research shows that these beis din decisions are 100% enforcable in secular court. Does anyone know of a law firm or way of getting out of the ruling? If it matters, my defenses include the following: the ruling is punishment for not agreeing to issue a Get, emails leading up to the hearing stated the purpose of the hearing was limited to only the Get issue; not understanding the scope of the Beis Din hearing, being tricked into believing the hearing was on the Get issue & then having them come out with division of assets; and having diminished mental capacity; as I’m diagnosed with PTSD and severe memory loss due to brain injury in 2013. I’m an Army Veteran of wars in Bosnia & Iraq. Thanks in advance for anyones help.

    #1213997
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We gave you advice to seek a laywer before, but it seems you didnt listen. You insisted on forcing your wife to reconsile

    #1213998
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which beis din is this?

    #1213999
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Zaha, you’re right. But hindsight is always 20/20. These Boards & the Sheila Rabbi we went to convinced me that the Beis Din wouldn’t rule against me. My bad. So is there a lawyer or strategy for getting around the Beis Din’s decision? thanks

    #1214000
    Lightbrite
    Participant
    #1214001
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Joseph, the beis din we went to:

    Bais Din Maysharim

    625 Forest Ave

    Lakewood, NJ, 08701

    #1214002
    flatbushaskan
    Participant

    can i ask why you’re asking yeshiva world, give her the get, and go see a psychologist.

    #1214003
    Joseph
    Participant

    Today is 1/15/17. If the case was only heard today, how did they issue a verdict the same day? Are you living in your marital home currently? What was the basis you were told that you’re being ordered to surrender your assets and pay alimony?

    #1214006

    (Note: I didn’t read your first thread.)

    My stupidity had me sign a bunch of agreement forms; which I didn’t even bother to read.

    Little to nothing can get around your own legal agreement.

    Why don’t you just divorce her and be done with it?

    #1214007
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Flat – I think it’s too late to give a get. I think the decision is to make me penniless and forget about the Get altogether.

    #1214008
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Joseph, trust me, it was heard & decided on same day. I objected to paying support for my wife b/c we make about the same amount of money. They said it doesn’t matter. They told me NJ gives Beis Din absolutely authority to make any decisions they wish to make. I almost thought i was in a Soviet Union gulag.

    #1214009
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Random – they really didn’t seem to concerned w/ me issuing a Get. I think they just wanted to give my wife about 90-100% of the marital assets. Can i call them tomorrow & ask if i give a Get w/ they change the settlemnt?

    #1214010
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Lenny1970, you said ” Instead of ruling on the Get, which I refused to go along with, the Beis Din ruled along the lines of they were going to seize nearly all my assets; force me to move out of our marital home and have me pay my wife hefty alimony while the divorce was ongoing.” (Lenny1970)

    From what I’ve learned, the husband’s neshama in these cases wants to give his wife the Get. Sometimes the husband’s body/mind get in the way. So the rabbis find a way to nudge his body/mind to the side so that the husband really acts on his neshama.

    In other words, why wouldn’t the Beis Din care about the Get? You flat out refused and have been resistant from the get-go. More than anything, it sounds like they are trying to help you give the Get on your own accord. It’s up to you whether you will become penniless in the process.

    At some point, why not do this for your own sake at least? You don’t have to fight a war at home. Baruch Hashem, Hashem gave you this time to live as a civilian. Honor it. Honor yourself. Why not bring honor to this struggle by offering what your neshama wants?

    #1214011
    Joseph
    Participant

    Lenny, what was the reason or basis they told you they reached the verdict/decision they issued?

    #1214012
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Oops I wrote the last post before yours went up Lenny1970.

    Def try seeing if they will work with you.

    Sending you hatzlacha for the best!

    #1214013
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Joseph, my wife and our rabbi were there. Our rabbi represented my wife. The beis din said things like the marriage was not repairable. They also believed her charges of abuse. I stated the abuse charges were never raised before this hearing and couldn’t possibly be true.

    #1214014
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Litebritre, I came in after they spoke to my wife and Rabbi separately. I assume they asked for a bigger settlement and to skip the get.

    #1214015

    I stated the abuse charges were never raised before this hearing and couldn’t possibly be true.

    That’s a blatant lie. You’ve been telling us for months about the charges.

    obtain a beis din's preliminary ruling without actually going to a beis din

    Just listen to the beis din.

    #1214016

    I think he meant this “ordeal”. As opposed to it having been an issue brought up over the years.

    #1214017

    Whether or not she has reason to end it all, why hasn’t she left? Sounds like there is more to this story. But Lenny, I do not understand why you would stay with her and I think the sooner you give her a get, (and get help for the PTSD) the sooner you can find a wife who wants you and will treat you well.

    #1214018
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “But hindsight is always 20/20.”

    In this case it was foresight that was 20/20

    #1214019
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I don’t practice in NJ. I am a family law attorney with many years experience. Your chance of having the agreement you signed before the Beis Din hearing nullified are slim to none. The cost of mounting such a campaign after the order to move out and pay pre-divorce support would take more assets than you probably have. You cannot encumber the marital home or use joint funds to proceed.

    Having followed your posts for a while, it appears that you are in denial. Your marriage is over. Get a divorce, issue a get and move on with your life. To keep a woman who doesn’t want you trapped is ridiculous.

    #1214020

    I think he meant this “ordeal”. As opposed to it having been an issue brought up over the years.

    You’re assuming a typo? If he says so, okay, but that’s not what he wrote.

    #1214021
    Joseph
    Participant

    DY, I also understood the comment as you did initially. But now I’m thinking that when he wrote “I stated the abuse charges were never raised before this hearing” he meant the claim of abuse was never discussed/raised before/”in front of” this hearing/panel, rather than “before” meaning “prior” to this hearing.

    #1214022
    Mammele
    Participant

    What I find odd is that he never mentioned PTSD etc. earlier in the CR. Then we all would have been more on his case for him to get treatment — although I honestly don’t know how effective treatment is for this or if he’s in therapy for it. (He just wrote that he has PTSD NOW, so claiming he’s over it would be contradictory.) Anger and outbursts can be among the side effects, which make his wife’s abuse claims seem more legit.

    #1214023
    golfer
    Participant

    L1970, I feel for you. You’re going through some very tough times and it must be so painful.

    You just got free advice from a competent real live attorney (not easy to come by outside the Coffee room).

    I would think that’s for sure your best option right now.

    And when it’s all over maybe send CTL a bouquet of roses for his wife. (Hoping she is well, CTL!)

    #1214024
    kollelman
    Participant

    Litebritre, I came in after they spoke to my wife and Rabbi separately. I assume they asked for a bigger settlement and to skip the get.

    If I’m not mistaken, a true Beis Din is not allowed to speak to any party ex-parte. They need to address everything in open court. This would be a violation of Halacha.

    #1214025

    A hearing is not a panel, and that wouldn’t be true, (how could they believe her charges if the issue wasn’t raised), or relevant to the truth of the charges.

    #1214026
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Fyi: PTSD varies.

    PTSD doesn’t have to be violent.

    Yes Lenny1970 did mention his wife’s abuse allegations.

    However not everyone or every veteran with PTSD is violent. The two situations don’t have to be related.

    Recently I took a certification course in working with individuals or peers with PTSD.

    As for PTSD commonly associated with war veterans, despite experiencing a great trauma, as anyone else with PTSD, there are less resources and less openness in society to help them heal. Many veterans are proud to have served but that meaning is lost on many civilians, including myself.

    #1214027
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    kollelman……

    If accusations of physical abuse were to be raised, a hearing of the Beis Din or a judge in Civil Court may entertain an ex parte motion for the safety of the abused. This is different than the actual trial.

    #1214028
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Yesterday I listened to a TorahAnytime shiur on tochacha. The rabbi said that sometimes silence is golden.

    That’s why we have two gates on our mouth. Teeth and lips. He said that in the digital age, lashon hara is more rampant since we don’t have gates on our fingertips.

    For the record, I know I have plenty of digital errors. I really hope that I am not being too harsh or blunt with you.

    If people weren’t accused of being criminals for having a mental illness, then perhaps more people would feel comfortable disclosing their conditions and get help.

    Part of healing is being able to accept oneself and find acceptance in a community. For chronic conditions, it helps for a community to be able to live in peace with individuals who do the best according to their own struggles.

    #1214029
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Golfer, thank you.

    Knowing when to go is a hard thing, especially when one partner doesn’t want to accept a marriage is over.

    I’m no clinical psychologist, but the denial may be part of the aforementioned PTSD.

    The biggest part of leaving a marriage that is over is not to say ‘I Failed’ but the ‘marriage failed’ some people can never bring themselves to be called a failure.

    #1214030
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Lenny1970, I am sorry you lost your wife. She may represent a lot of things to you.

    It is okay to be sad right now.

    Letting her be happy is also giving yourself a chance at that too. I know that you don’t want to her to be sad and hurt.

    It took a lot of courage for you to get to this point of giving the Get. Yasher koach to you.

    Also, if you ever need to talk to someone, the Veterans Crisis line is great. I’ve even called it before when a friend of mine who is also a veteran was going through a really hard time.

    I talked to someone on the phone for 45min for free. A big blessing. Professional help. People who have dealt with this.

    I know that you also have emuna. Maybe Hashem put the idea that you were signing something else there to make it easier for you to listen to your neshama and sign the papers. Remember that Hashem is really in charge. Hashem is your highest commander. Be true to Him. Sometimes the fight is really about letting Him guide us. The Beis Din, your rabbi and your wife, they also are from Hashem and right now it looks like you know what to do.

    Hoping the Beis Din is working with you for the best. Thanks for keeping us posted and taking this all to heart πŸ™‚

    #1214031
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you for your service Lenny1970.

    #1214032
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LB

    You might not realize but the OP a few months ago was posting how he wanted to get a beis din to force his wife to stay married to him. Most people here gave advice to let go and he refused and listened to a few people who were trolling him.

    he is now paying the price of not being more reasonable then

    #1214033

    LB – there are many who say that it is not ‘good timing’ to give a person a talk about emunah while they are in the midst of their suffering. The veteran’s help line would be a great suggestion tho.

    as someone with very many year’s experience working with TBI and PTSD i personally would recommend cutting a bit more slack on the memory/reporting/consistency issue. the simple fact that this happened halfway (?) into a marriage may explain some of the issues and compassion for both sides may be required here.

    that being said, Lenny, I would love to see you get the help and support you need and this wife doesn’t seem to be the person who can help you with that at this time.

    Hashem should give you strength.

    #1214034
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Thanks for all the feedback. Some of it i agree with fully. So I spoke to the Rabbi who works for the Beis Din. I told him 2 thngs: #1 – i’ll write the Get if they give me a fair settlement.

    #1214035
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    The 2nd thing I said is that if the Beis Din’s ruling covers anything other than a Get/No Get decision, the decision goes beyond the scope of what the parties agreed to. Specifically, in all of my pre-hearing discussions with the Beis Din, both orally & in emails, we only discussed the Get/No Get decision. Per the “AGREEMENT TO SUBMIT TO ARBITRATION,” the word “asset” is not even mentioned once. Just found an article, which i think may apply to my case, saying courts have held Arbitrators can’t go beynd the Agreement. Not sure if CT lawyer or anyone out there w/ an opinion. Thanks

    #1214036
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Lenny1970………..

    Without reading all the signed documents I could not give you a legal opinion That said, it matters not what your prehearing discussions were (oral or in e-mails). A civil court is bound by the 4 corners of the contract (the document you signed). If the limitation of arbitration is NOT in the contract than as far as civil courts are concerned it does not exist,

    You would be hard pressed to prove that you signed the agreement for a hearing under duress or lack of mental ability making it void. Such a claim regarding mental status could lead to you being placed under a guardianship or even being institutionalized.

    I wish you well and hope that you can go forward and build a new and different life. There is life after divorce, and it is often better.

    #1214037
    kollelman
    Participant

    Thank you CTLawyer. I was not thinking of the abuse angle. Doctors and nurses similarly throw significant others out of the room to ask personal safety questions as well (often under pretext).

    #1214038
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Who is kollelman and why is he answering in first person on behalf of Lenny1970?

    #1214039

    Kollelman made a comment above about ex-parte consultation.

    #1214040

    Is it allowed in bais din? Dayanim are not doctors.

    #1214041
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont know about the US, but in Israel there an “appeals court” for beis din.

    I think also the RCA allows appeals

    #1214042

    Is it allowed in bais din? Dayanim are not doctors.

    I don’t know.

    #1214043
    Joseph
    Participant

    “I don’t know.”

    Halacha says it isn’t allowed.

    #1214044
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Daas, these abuse issues never heard before. For example, he’s unstable and violent. He has guns. I’m afraid he’s going to use the guns on me.

    #1214045
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Ctlawyer, I hope you’re wrong. So you’re saying since the scope is unstated, the arbitration panel can rule on anything and everything? I would hope just the opposite. But you’re probably right. Thanks

    #1214046
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Ctlawyer or anyone, there does appear to be some limits on the arbitrator. If you live in a homeowners assn, and you have a dispute over a neighbor’s trees encroaching on your property line, can the arbitrator rule the violator has to pay the offended neighbor $1 million? I would hope not. But CT lawyer, you’re saying if the agreement is like mine, the sky is the limit. So here’s what i found

    link removed per NYS, “An arbitration award can be vacated by a court pursuant to CPLR 7511 (b) (1) (iii) on only three narrow grounds: if it is clearly violative of a strong public policy, if it is totally or completely irrational, or if it manifestly exceeds a specific, enumerated limitation on the arbitrator’s power”

    link removedIn a 7/19/10 ruling, the Suprement Court “Holding that arbitrator being itself a constituent of an agreement to such effect . . . The Court. . . held that the arbitrator derived its authority from the agreement and his terms of reference being determined by the agreement, he could not pass an award against or beyond the contractual stipulations.”

    #1214047
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    I just want to be clear. My soon-to-be ex-wife & I have zero violence. She may have said I could bcome violent on earlier meetings, but nowhere near the extent to what i heard in the beis din hearing. Civilly, per below, i think i would not be ruled against…. as there’s no history of violence:

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