Oy vay! The goy that bought the chometz died! BDE

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Oy vay! The goy that bought the chometz died! BDE

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1719485

    The goy that bought the chometz died, OBM.

    The rov is unsuccessful to locate his yorshim (he has a son and daughter somewhere).

    The chometz remains in limbo…

    what do we do?

    Oy vay!

    #1719507

    This must have happened sometime over all the generations. What happens in such a case?

    #1719500

    Joseph
    Participant

    The guy’s children don’t necessarily yarshen him. Hilchos Yerusha doesn’t apply to non-Jews.

    #1719521

    NEWS FLASH: The goy is in a coma. Still alive B”H. but unconscious. Still a problem with the chometz!

    #1719518

    Dinim apply, which may include some form of yerusha.

    Also dina d’malchusa certainly applies.

    #1719572

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Why wouldn’t it just make it hefker like a ger (without heirs) who dies with chometz before Pesach?

    #1719630

    Joseph
    Participant

    Dina D’malchusa is a specific Halacha applicable to Yidden. And choshen mishpat takes precedence to Dina D’malchusa regarding Yidden, in any event.

    One of the Sheva Mitzvos is for goyim to establish laws and courts. That’s a more reasonable claim that secular law is binding upon goyim. If you go that route (which can be disputed since the other party to the transaction are Yidden, so really Halacha takes precedence over secular law) you’ll need to deal with probate court and estate distribution under state law, which will likely delay buying back the chometz for a several months or more.

    #1719652

    eman
    Participant

    I think most contracts have a clause that if the balance isn’t paid by a certain time (say 10 PM motze Yom tov) the goy relinquishes his rights.

    #1719671

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, a goy’s son inherits him mi d’Oraita so if he has a son it is now his. If not, it goes according to secular law (Rambam, Hilchot Nachalot 6,9).

    Rebbetzin, you may have a problem. Even if there is a clause requiring him to pay by a certain time it might be an oness that stops the clock. This is a sugiya regarding a conditional gett (Gittin 30a). Ask your LOR.

    #1719678

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, what’s your source that a gentile’s son inherits his father? (I know about a Jewish son.)

    #1719766

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    If he died after pesach, is in coma or ran away you dont have any problem as has been explained to Joseph year after year in the “buying chometz back” thread.

    If he dies during pesach that might be a problem, though again not an insurmountable one. T is likely comparable to Joseph’s subscribe and save which is a beferish din as to what to do. Though I’m not sure about the land sold to the guy which contains hefker chometz

    #1719762

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, Rambam, Hilchot Nachalot 6,9.
    העכו”ם יורש את אביו דבר תורה, אבל שאר ירושותיהן מניחין אותו לפי מנהגם.

    #1719778

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: Milhouse and I have refuted your point in the other thread.

    #1719789

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What if the person has no children (He secular will gave the money to various charities)

    #1719801

    Joseph
    Participant

    Better (and much more likely) question:

    The “goy” that bought the chometz turns out to be a Jew or a Safek Jew, as is learned much to everyone’s chagrin after Yom Tov.

    What do you do now?

    #1719880

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The “goy” that bought the chometz turns out to be a Jew or a Safek Jew, as is learned much to everyone’s chagrin after Yom Tov.
    What do you do now?”

    Safek chometz shaver alav Pesach l’kulah. The situation of a vadai Jew doing it as a prank would be very unlikely.

    “ubiq: Milhouse and I have refuted your point in the other thread.”

    What point was that?

    #1719885

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, if he is definitely a Jew then the chametz is definitely prohibited. If he is only a safek Jew it is permitted as it is a safek d’rabbanan.

    #1719916

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “ubiq: Milhouse and I have refuted your point in the other thread.”

    Lol no you haven’t. It isnt “my point” it is how the sale is typically organized, as several posters over the years have explained.
    You didnt “refute” anything you just repeated the same misinformation year after year.
    Millhouse claims his rav does it differently. assuming he remembers correctly. His is an exception, as that is not typically how done.

    As to a safek jew is likely a safek derabanan.

    #1719925

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: What Milhouse described is the standard normative practice throughout Klal Yisroel.

    #1719934

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If we’re all talking about the same thread, then what Milhouse described was basically the same thing we were describing: a down-payment, a default on the credit, and automatic repossession by the Rabbi. What Joseph described was completely different and wrong which is the common 2-complete-sales misconception.

    Do you actually think it works that way, Joseph, or are you taking one out of RGP’s book and purposely trying to misconstrue the halachah as some kind of weird joke?

    #1719981

    Neville, don’t make fun of my Joseph! or my sefer. אם ילד שעשעים כי מדי דברי בו זכר אזכרנו עוד

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.