December 29, 2014 12:13 am at 12:13 am #614571
Is it wrong for the parents of the girl to ask where you are taking their daughter for a date?
I don’t feel comfortable telling the parents where I take the girl. Especially if the girl doesnt end up turning out to be the girl you were hoping for so you would want to change the plans up.December 29, 2014 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1050674
1) What do you mean by “if the girl doesnt end up turning out to be the girl you were hoping for” and 2) Why would you change the plans because of that?December 29, 2014 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1050675
The parents might not feel comfortable letting you take their daughter to an unknown place.December 29, 2014 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1050676
1) If he can figure out if she is “the girl he was hoping for”
quickly enough to change his plans for the evening based on that,
I’d assume he’s talking about looks.
2) If he knows he’s not interested in the girl, but is in a situation
in which he must take her out, he will presumably choose
a location based on how much he will enjoy it, as opposed
to a location he thinks most suited for a first date.
Personally, I hope he’s trolling.December 29, 2014 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1050677
I think that if a parent asks that question of you, the first date for sure answer truthfully and do what you told them you would. After that date, maybe call either the shadchan/one of her references to make a further inquiry about the parents if you are still sincerely interested in the girl.
They could be very nervous themselves about their daughter dating. My mom has freaked out on multiple occasions because she knows I have spoken to many shadchanim over the past year and have not gotten a single in person date- her worry was that some people have been saying things about me that guys would ask as references and that the result was that I kept on getting “no”.December 29, 2014 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1050678
Another reason in favor of having a beshow.December 29, 2014 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1050679
I usually tell the parents we’re going to the Brooklyn Marriott, and then go to Atlantic City or wherever we’re going.
Ditto’s on the “what time will you be home?” “10:00 Sharp! (and then stay out until 2, unless I don’t like her in which case 7–so you see, it averages out to 10!)December 29, 2014 1:40 am at 1:40 am #1050680
I don’t think that parents should ask where you are going…unless the girl is still a minor! If you want to be nice, you can offer them to come along. NOT!December 29, 2014 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1050681
If someone decides upon first sight that this is not the girl he’s been hoping for and thus wants to take her to a lesser place, he’s not mature enough to date while being so vain.
And parents certainly should be aware where their unmarried child is going alone for numerous hours with an unacquainted person of the opposite gender.December 29, 2014 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1050682
My first post is still in limbo, but Lior was able to figure
it out on his own (and I hadn’t even thought of expenses).
We’re thinking along the same lines, too, for once.December 29, 2014 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1050683
Lior, what do “vain” and “vanity” mean to you?
You appear to be using them (here and >here<) as though they refer to ???, which is one of their two meanings, but in a context where you’re obviously talking about someone’s looks, this can be confusing, given that their other meaning is “excessive pride in or admiration of one’s own appearance or achievements.”
Did you mean, in both places, that the boy is concerned
with ????? ?? ???, namely, the girl’s looks?December 29, 2014 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1050684
PBA -“unless I don’t like her”
Why would you go out with a “her”?December 29, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1050685
Comlink-X, The fifth definition in the OED: inanity.December 29, 2014 6:30 am at 6:30 am #1050686
“Yes” would’ve been fine, Lior.
(Okay, “two meanings” was a mistake, but which
of those two words is that fifth definition for?)December 29, 2014 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1050687
when i say ” the girl doesnt turn out to be what you hoped for” i was talking about looks.
If you say you are going one place and the girl doesnt have the looks you want, how can you change the spot you were going to?December 29, 2014 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1050688
Does anyone else think the SNs of, and the threads started by,
“lalaland55” and “chumchuck” bear some resemblance to each other,
or am I just being paranoid? Personally, hope confirmed.December 29, 2014 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1050689
I think parents often mess up their kids shidduchim, without being aware of what they are doing and how counterproductive their actions could be. A mother wrote to the shadchan in the “Flatbush Jewish Journal,” about being annoyed that the boy her daughter was dating a few times, was going to E”Y for Chanukah. She wanted to know if they had a right to be upset with him, and I think basically she was saying she felt he had no business going on a trip while dating her daughter, and wanted to know should they be concerned about him.
FTR, this letter was presented once before (did they think I would not notice????), some time ago. I thougt then, and think even more so now, that this mom had best keep her pushiness to herself, before she scares the boy off with her demands about how he spends his vacation time when he is not yet even near to officially committed to her daughter. Anxious moms make anxious children, and anxious prospective in-laws. STAY COOL. If it is meant to be, do your hishtadlus, and then accept that the rest is in Hashem’s Hands.December 29, 2014 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1050690
I guess the ultimate question really is if the girl won’t be offended if I change the plans from what I told her parents before I saw herDecember 30, 2014 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1050691
If someone decides upon first sight that this is not the girl he’s been hoping for and thus wants to take her to a lesser place, he’s not mature enough to date
Sure. He may end up loving her despite her sumo resemblance.December 30, 2014 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1050692
A mother wrote to the shadchan in the “Flatbush Jewish Journal,” about being annoyed that the boy her daughter was dating a few times, was going to E”Y for Chanukah. She wanted to know if they had a right to be upset with him, and I think basically she was saying she felt he had no business going on a trip while dating her daughter, and wanted to know should they be concerned about him.
It is perfectly acceptable to ask if they should be concerned about him. Many times people see warning signs and ignore them because they don’t trust their own intuition.
If they are used to getting engaged after 5-6 dates, and they already had 3, then the question is a good one. It may after all not be a concern at all, but to ask the question is definitely a good choice. It is not called pushiness to get advice during your child’s dating process.December 31, 2014 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1050693
Sorry, but I respectfully could not disagree more! No mama has the right to be making demands on someone who has only recently begun to date her daughter. Were I that boy, this would raise major flags with me, as to the kind of interfering shvigget I could be getting! She does not own him.December 31, 2014 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1050694
I don’t think it’s fair. You’re supposed to be attracted to the girl you’re going to marry and if you see that’s not happening from the first date then why should you go all out and spend money on such a beautiful date?December 31, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1050695
If you’re already sure you’re not attracted to her and you don’t care about sparing her feelings, why not just dump her right there?December 31, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1050696
chumchuck – You’re suggesting the purpose of paying for a nicer date is to woo her rather than to make her happier? So if you don’t want to woo her anymore, no need to make her happier? Then you should be taking RY23’s advice.December 31, 2014 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1050697
It doesn’t help to tell you that attraction often grows. Those of us who have been there and know this to be true, already know it. Those who don’t believe it, cannot easily be convinced. But it IS true. Looks change over time, sometimes sooner than one expects. Unless someone is a completely awful date, it pays to go for a second chance.December 31, 2014 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1050699
Were I that boy, this would raise major flags with me, as to the kind of interfering shvigget I could be getting! She does not own him.
If it was the girl herself who had that concern, would you think the same?December 31, 2014 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1050700
In all fairness to the “shvigger”, the trip to Israel was not mentioned at any time until after several dates and only then she questioned whether it was right to keep the girl in limbo while he is away. she should have asked, is it ok to go with someone else while he is away, for after all, just like she has no “claims” on someone who dated her daughter several times, he has no “rights” to this girl either. Unfortunately, she didnt ask that, instead she came across as a whiny interfering shvigger.December 31, 2014 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1050701
In all fairness to the “shvigger”, the trip to Israel was not mentioned at any time until after several dates and only then she questioned whether it was right to keep the girl in limbo while he is away. she should have asked, is it ok to go with someone else while he is away, for after all, just like she has no “claims” on someone who dated her daughter several times, he has no “rights” to this girl either. Unfortunately, she didn’t ask that, instead she came across as a whiny interfering shvigger.
I didn’t read the article in question, however, Oomis said that she wanted to know if they should be concerned about him. I think it’s a valid question.
For some people three to five dates can mean both parties are really serious. For some people even after twenty dates, it doesn’t mean they are really serious.
For you, it would be normal for her to wonder if she can see someone else in the interim. For others, such a question would not seem normal, and would make them keep far away from a person who asks such a question.
And it’s not a question of anyone having the right to control another persons behavior. But rather to evaluate if the person is acting in a decent manner, which is something very vital when looking for a marriage partner.December 31, 2014 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1050702
personally, it is a valid question as it relates to “menchlechkeit” but the way the question was posed the woman was more concerned about “out of site, out of mind” and the shidduch regressing with a concern about menchlechkeit mentioned in passing. as for the shadchans response, I think she completely blew it. she basicly said be dan lekaf zechus and, give him a pass as it relates to menchlechkeit and think “absence makes the heart grow fonder” as it relates to your overall concern about the shidduch.December 31, 2014 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1050703
No one is answering the question I had. Will the girl be offended if I change the plans from what I’ve told her parents before I saw her? She won’t know what changed it but the question is will she be offended?December 31, 2014 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1050704
Some girls would be totally clueless and not offended at all. Other girls will be offended, but will probably still be polite enough not to punch you.December 31, 2014 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1050705
If the girl herself brought this up, I would gently tell her she has no real claim on him. And even if she did, i.e. they were nearly engaged, which was not the case here to our knowledge, she comes across as extremely insecure, petty (to not fahrgin him a short trip to Israel), and controlling. I would think it would raise some red flags for the BOY! There was nothing indecent about the boy going away for chanukah. The mom made a big deal out of nothing. If she was that worried about his character, why approve the shidduch, to begin with? If they are of the mindset that three to five dates confers some sort of serious commitment then surely they checked him out to death prior to the first date.December 31, 2014 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1050706
Chumchuck – if you downgraded the date from say dinner to just a soda or coffee, her parents surely will ask her where you went, and if they thought it was going to be a very different type of date, she WILL be offended, when she realizes why you did it.
My son went out on blind dates with girls who were not for him l’chatchilah, but who came highly recommended and he often knew that within moments of picking them up. He nonetheless ALWAYS made sure that they enjoyed the date, followed through on whatever had been planned, and only in one case was he ever sorry that he did not simply cancel the date altogether. Even if the particular girl or guy are not for each other, they might have friends or relatives who would fit the bill so why give them a bad impression of each other. In any case, one should always be a mensch, regardless.December 31, 2014 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1050707
RebYidd, I know of someone who when the girl opened the door to him, unthinkingly said, “Oh no!” and left. Apparently she was not pretty enough to suit his very highly refined sense of aesthetics.
What a loser that guy was! And a jerk. I went out with my share of guys who were not attractive to me, but each date taught me something new about the process and about being able to talk to anyone, and put me one step closer to the person I did marry.January 1, 2015 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1050708
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
only in one case was he ever sorry that he did not simply cancel the date altogether
You made me very curious…
In any case, one should always be a mensch, regardless.
That’s the main thing.January 1, 2015 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1050709
DY don’t be curious. Were I to elaborate, someone might recognize the girl or situation, and she would be embarrassed. Her behavior showed some serious mental issues. This was a shidduch, BTW. The shadchan clearly had no clue. As with every profession, there are good practitioners, and those who are less so.January 1, 2015 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1050710
If she was that worried about his character, why approve the shidduch, to begin with? If they are of the mindset that three to five dates confers some sort of serious commitment then surely they checked him out to death prior to the first date.
With all due respect, it is obvious you don’t know how things work for those that three to five dates is sufficient. You are using your own way of doing things as a measurement of what is normal and what isn’t, which you can’t do, since other people do things differently.
People do the best they can with checking things out, but no, it is impossible to really be able to check a person out, unless you yourself know them at best and lived with them with worst. It is irresponsible for anyone to ignore any signs of trouble, no matter how wonderful all the information about him was.
To be perfectly honest, if my daughter were to see a boy, and after the second date, decided he wants to take a trip of Israel for vacation, and didn’t have a VERY valid reason for doing so, I wouldn’t even ask anyone questions! I would not go further at all.
Which doesn’t mean that in this case, it is problematic. I just don’t see the harm in getting another person’s perspective.
If your child were seeing someone who was chronically late and didn’t even apologize? Would that concern you? Or would you think, you don’t own him and therefore you have no right to expect him to come on time?January 1, 2015 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1050711
Trust, I had written a long answer to your last post, but apparently Hashem did not want me to post it, and made my computer go weird just as I was sending it. (Emes).
So I am taking this to be that I should only deal with the one thing that I wrote at the end, and leave it at that. You asked”
“If your child were seeing someone who was chronically late and didn’t even apologize? Would that concern you? Or would you think, you don’t own him and therefore you have no right to expect him to come on time?”
This has absolutely nothing to do with the issue we have been discussing. It is apples and elephants (not even oranges). What you are describing is someone who habitually disrespects his date. has nothing to do with ownership or rights, but simple thoughtfulness and consideration. Someone who is chronically keeping someone else waiting (whether for a date, or for an appointment, or for a lunch out with a friend, and does not have the decency to show regret and apologize (at the least), demonstrates a clear disrespect for that person’s feelings and time.
A boy who is dating for a short time, has every right to go on a short vacation, without feeling obliged to get “permission” from the parents of a girl he has gone out with only a very few times (in your case you said, after two dates). And a mom who shows her pushy hand too soon in the game, and moreover, casts aspersions on the boy’s character in the process, says more about herself than about the boy in question. Should he tell this mom everytime he wants to go out with his friends, too? He went to Israel, not Las Vegas.
If the mom was worried that he might be meeting another shidduch there (I don’t believe that was mentioned, but I no longer have the column, so I cannot be sure), I would still tell her, stay cool. Don’t make mountains out of molehills. Don’t put the cart before the horse… and whatever other applicable trite expression of which I can think.
I realze that you and I might have very different concepts about shidduchim, and kol hakavod, but whether more charedi or less charedi, mothers universally need to reign themselves in before frightening prosepctive sons-in-law away and nizing their daughters’ chances for happiness, especially when we have so many single young men and women today.January 1, 2015 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1050712
I hear what you’re saying, oomis.
Seems to me you’re saying, “stay calm, talk a deep breath, get some sunshine, or have a cup of tea.”
Unfortunately, that’s just not the way it is with shidduchim.
I saw you were chastised (different thread) for calling shidduchim a “hot button issue.” Maybe the phrase you used is not exactly perfectly correct. But you didn’t see me taking issue with it. Shidduchim bring out the least calm aspect of many people’s characters. Not a good thing. Just how it is.January 1, 2015 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1050713
Golfer, it’s all OK. I was not feeling chastised at all. My reference to shidduchim talk as being hot button, is only my observation that it elicits a great deal of reaction whenever it is mentioned. Politics likewise evoke strong reactions. I know personally how stressful shidduchim can be, but it really behooves each of us to try and not add to the stress levels by saying or doing counterproductive things, with our good intentions. A great deal of damage is done by well-meaning folk.January 2, 2015 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1050714
Am I missing something here? What’s wrong with going to Israel for Chanuka? I took on an extra summer job to pay for a trip to Israel the Succos before I got married, because I knew that it would be the last time I can fly to Israel on such a cheap flight (via Moscow), and the last time I could save myself from paying for a hotel or apartment (I slept in a friend’s dira). Now that I am married with a child (B”H) I know that it will probably a while before I can afford to visit Israel again.
B”H I grabbed the opportunity to spend one last Succos around the corner from the Mirrer Yeshiva.
Did my wife miss the red lights about all of my personality disorders? Or maybe she was willing to settle with a husband whose idea of an ideal vacation includes going back to Yeshiva for a week.
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