Parnassa from Hashem?

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  • #1564064

    BisBoy
    Participant

    Does it say anywhere in Judaism that parnassa does Not come from Hashem?

    I’m looking for real torah sources, if any, that the money a person earns depends on his hard work and how successful he/she is in business.

    If someone can please provide some sources, because all I can find is that a persons parnassa comes %100 from Hashem and nothing he does as far as histadlus in work can change what’s coming to him. The only things that can change it is if a person does wrong spiritually.

    If so why work so hard to make a living? Instead work on refining yourself spiritually.

    Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    #1564097

    Avi K
    Participant

    We are required to do hishtadlut. Chazal say that a man is obligated to teach his son a trade or profession and if he fails to do so he teaches him to rob and steal (Kiddushin 29a). In general, when something is given one must go out and get it. For example, a farmer must leave a corner of his field for the poor but they must come and collect what they need.

    #1564103

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Dont count on hashem helping if you dont help yourself!
    Hashem want you to be mishtadel. Not just to be yotzeh but to really show him that your trying.

    #1564105

    MDG
    Participant

    From Nidah 70b, Soncino translation and notes:

    What must a man do that he may become rich? He replied: Let him engage much in business34 and deal honestly. Did not many, they said to him, do so but it was of no avail to them? — Rather, let him pray for mercy from Him to whom are the riches, for it is said, Mine is the silver, and Mine the gold.35 What then36 does he 37teach us?38 — That one without the other39 does not suffice.

    (34) ‘Engage . . . business’ is deleted by Elijah Wilna.
    (35) Hag. II, 8.
    (36) Seeing that one has in any case to pray for mercy.
    (37) Samuel who stated, ‘Let him engage much’ etc.
    (38) Cf. prev. n. but five mut. mut.
    (39) Honest dealing without prayer and vice versa.

    #1564143

    simcha613
    Participant

    The Mon fell from shamayim.. but Klal Yisroel had to go out to get it. The less of a tzadik you were, the further you had to go to get your portion. We who are even lesser tzadikim have to walk very very far to get our parnassah that God sends from Heaven.

    #1564111

    BisBoy
    Participant

    I understand that a person needs to do histadlus. That wasn’t my question.

    My question is, do we see anywhere in Chazal that the amount of parnassa a person has is dependant in any way on the amount of his histadlus. I’ve only found sources that say the exact opposite. Yes, histadlus is needed, not to rely on miracles, but the histadlus is not what brings the Parnassa. That is something that was decided on Rosh Hashana and can be changed by our [spiritual] deeds.

    #1564116

    BisBoy
    Participant

    Thank you MDG that gemara just intensifies our dilemma. The gemara clearly states that both are needed, and engaging in business is not what will give parnassa.

    However more powerful is when we look in the halacha which teaches us how to run our lives.

    In Shulchan Aruch 1:5 where the mechaber teaches that it is good to say parshas haman each day the mishna brura rules “להורות שריבוי ההשתדלות לא יועיל מאומה’. כמו שבמן, ‘המרבה לא העדיף והממעיט לא החסיר’, וסוף דבר העלה כל אחד בידו ‘עומר לגולגולת’ כמו שנקצב לו מן השמים. “ומזה ילמד האדם שריבוי ההשתדלות לא יתן לו ולא יוסיף לא מאומה, ולא יתרבו מזונותיו עבור זה, ולאידך אף אם לא ירבה בהשתדלות ישלים לו הבורא מזונותיו כפי הנקצב לו”.

    “To teach us that working hard does not help at all. Like by the maana ‘the one who gathered more did not recieve more and the one who gathered less did not recieve less’, at the end of the day everyone ended up with what was declared from heaven. From this each person should learn that working extra will not give him anything and will not add to his income. Even if we works harder Hashem will give him exactly what is meant for him.”

    This is even more powerful when we see clear halachos which one is required to do daily according to all opinions and many people skip it because they are busy working. For example the requirement to say the parsha twice with targum or Rashi once. The requirement to “והגית בו יומם ולילה”. The requirement to say karbanos expect for unusual circumstances, etc. We can go on and list things that people are דש בעקבו in order to go work.

    Not to get off topic, is there any source that shows an opinion other than the mishna brura quoted above?

    #1564117

    BisBoy
    Participant

    To give more credit to MDG from your source in Nida it is clear that work is needed to get rich (aside from the Gra’s version), that answers one part of the question. However, the question remains and is even more powerful that the amount of work and amount of effort in work or success in work is not what decides a person’s income.

    All the more so when we see that the halacha (mishna brura above) says it straight out.

    #1564165

    DovidBT
    Participant

    I recently read somewhere that Hashem expects us to use our abilities as best as we can, and then He will help us. But I don’t remember the source.

    #1564171

    laskern
    Participant

    It is known the famous Rambam in Hilchas Talmud Torah 3:10 כל המשים על עצמו about sitting and learning and relying on support.

    #1564189

    laskern
    Participant

    The reason we need hishtadlus is that the barocho of parnosoh can not apply to nothing.

    #1564257

    Avi K
    Participant

    BisBoy, the problem is that no one knows what is “extra” for him.

    #1564300

    The little I know
    Participant

    I think there is a point missing here. For many, the work we do is more than just parnosoh. It is also providing goods and services to others. If I am a doctor, my receipts from patients and insurance companies constitutes parnosoh. But the healing services I do are benefiting others. Do I have the right to limit that and deprive others of the needed medical care?

    Perhaps those who have the skills and talents have that obligation to the Klal. They are entitled to bill for their goods and services. If they get rich by doing so, kal hakavod to them.

    No, I am not a doctor. This was just an example.

    #1564316

    MDG
    Participant

    BisBoy,

    It seems to me that you’re asking the age-old question of where is a line between our effort and Emunah.

    my answer to that is that each person is on their own level, and each person has his own dividing line. To me a good test to measure Emunah is to look at how much Yirah a person has. if a person claims to have faith that Hashem will help but has no fear, that is inconsistent. After all, it is the same Hand of Hashem that feeds you as that smacks you.

    We need to look around and see how Hashem is involved in our lives and make a determination. Joseph was punished for petitioning the wine steward because he should have had faith in Hashem. but how was he supposed to know where his line was? The answer to that is simple. He was already thrown in a pit before. He was miraculously saved from the pit of snakes and scorpions before, so now he should know the Hashem is with him and saving him. It seems to me, based on the example of Joseph, the each of us should know our own level. But, it’s not always clear, just like it was not perfectly clear to Joseph.

    #1564338

    laskern
    Participant

    Someone once complained to Hashem that he never wins the lottery, so He said to him, did you ever buy a lottery ticket?

    #1564594

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Your business is to be mishtadel by working as much as you can,even if it means taking on a second job because your responsibility is to your family. What hashem does is not your business.if he feels you need a third job then you will find out sooner or later. If you win a lottery you will also find out. But your hishtadlus is to work as hard as you canwithout any cheshbonos of ” why work extra if hashem decided how much you should make. Work the most you can. Learn the most you can and do chassadim the most you can and hashem will do what has to be done both for the good and not so good.

    #1565179

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Oh yay I love this topic, one of my passions as I experience many variations of this dilemma on a pretty constant basis, and I’ve learned allot about it. Will try to write up something tomorrow bln if you’re interested 🙂

    #1565239

    Avi K
    Participant

    MDG,
    1. No one today is on Yosef’s level.
    2. Rashi says that the wine steward was known as an ingrate who never helped anybody.
    3. A person has an obligation towards his employer to work as hard as he can. Even if he is self-employed he should still give his all. Thus, Yaakov asked the shepherds why they were sitting around doing nothing whether they were working for someone else or themselves,

    #1565221

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Will try to write up something tomorrow bln if you’re interested

    I’m interested. 🙂

    #1565758

    MDG
    Participant

    Avi K,

    1. I just meant that each of us needs to evaluate our own madreiga.
    2. Regardless of his bad character, he still could be a channel through which Hashem send whelp
    3. Good point. I did not mean to say otherwise, but my words may imply that. Thanks for your constructive criticism.

    #1565968

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Sorry op and Dovidbt. I spent some time yesterday writing up my favorite sources and how to/I apply, and it wasn’t posted I don’t know why :(. Still hoping this can get resolved as its quite a shame it didn’t come through when to the best of my knowledge, I didn’t break any rules

    #1565967

    1
    Participant

    Not everyone who works hard makes a lot of money

    #1565955

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Hey what happened to my post?

    #1566645

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    July 27, 2018
    1Participant
    Not everyone who works hard makes a lot of money.
    ——————————————–
    And not everyone who davens for a shidduch and parnosso and for health get them. Do u ask how much should i daven for health and a shidduch? Or are you mishtadel and go on dates? Or do u just sit back and say i went out enough on dated , now im waiting for hashem to come along. You daven and learn and work because thats what you are meant to to do. Hashem does his part but expect hin to do anything if you are sitting back and expecting for everything to fall; in place because you feel u did enough davening , dating or working.

    #1567985

    knaidlach
    Participant

    is buying a lottary ticket considerd hishtadlus? i think yes. thats why i buy only one ticked at a time

    #1568621

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    from jw:
    The value of work in the eyes of Chazal
    In certain circles today, the word work is a 4 letter word. However, if we look at Chazal we see that Chazal actually believed the opposite, that in fact Chazal thought work was very important and valuable.

    In last weeks Parsha (יתרו), we have the ten commandments with one of them being the commandment to observe Shabbos. However, before commanding us to keep Shabbos the Torah states “ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתיך”. On this pasuk there are many derashos of Chazal on the positive value of work. The תורה שלימה at the end of יתרו has 2 essays on this point and all of the sources below are taken from there.
    Work as a Mitzva
    There are a number of sources in Chazal that state that not only is work a positive value, but it is a mitzvah.
    1. Source: במכילתא דרשב״י
    ששת ימים תעבד רבי אומר הרי זו גזרה אחרת שכשם שנצטוו ישראל על מצות עשה של שבת כך נצטוו על מלאכה
    Six days you should work, Rebbi says this is another gezera that just like the Jewish people were commanded as a positive commandment to keep Shabbos, so too they were commanded to work [on the other 6 days].
    2. Source: ובאבות דר״נ נו״ב פכ״א
    רבי אליעזר אומר גדולה היא מלאכה שכשם שנצטוו ישראל על השבת כך נצטוו על המלאכה שנאמר ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך
    Rabbi Eliezer said work is a very good thing because just like the Jewish people were commanded to keep Shabbos, so too they were commanded to work as the pasuk says 6 days you should work

    R’ Kasher explains the source for saying that work is a mitzvah as follows:

    ונראה שיסוד של הדרשות הנ״ל הוא משום שהתורה הזכירה שמנה פעמים במצות שמירת שבת עשיית מלאכה בששת ימים וצריך להבין מה רצתה התורה לומר בזו- הרי בעיקר באה להזהירנו על שמירת שבת, ולמה הדגישה בכל פעם עשיית המלאכה בששת ימים. מזה למדו רבי ור״א שהתורה צוותה בפסוקים אלה על המלאכה בששת הימים ואין זה רשות גרידא. אלא כשאדם הולך בטל ואינו עושה כלום מבטל מצות התורה של ששת ימים תעבד

    It seems that the reason behind these derashos is that the Torah mentions 8 times when discussing the mitzvah of Shabbos doing work on the other six days. We have to understand what is the Torah telling us? The main point the Torah is coming to tell us is to warn us to keep Shabbos and therefore why does the Torah emphasise every time the idea of doing work on the other 6 days. From this Rebbi and R’ Eliezer learned that the Torah is commanding us to work on these 6 days and it is not optional, rather if a person sits and does nothing he is not fulfilling the mitzvah of working 6 days.
    Work as a positive value
    R’ Kasher then brings a whole set of statements of Chazal about the positive value of work. What is fascinating is that he only quotes the more obscure ones, the others he doesn’t quote because as he says “כי ידועים הם”, everyone know them.
    Sources: ממכילתא דרשב׳׳י שם מאבות דר׳ נתן נו״ב, ממשנת דבי אליעזר

    Edited for length – please break up extra long posts. Thanks! -33

    #1568679

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Continued from earlier:

    1. ר׳ אלעזד בן עזריה אומר גדולה מלאכה שלא שרת שכינה בישראל עד שעשו מלאכה שנא’ ועשו לי מקדש ושכנתי בתוכם
    R’ Elazar Ben Azarya said work is so good that the divine presense did dwell with the Jewish people until they did work as the pasuk says make me a mikdash and I will dwell amongst you.
    2. רבי אליעזר אומר גדולה היא מלאכה שאפילו אדם הראשון לא טעם כלום אלא עד שעשה מלאכה שנאמד ויניחהו בגן עדן לעבדה ולשמרה
    Rabbi Eliezer said work is good because even Adam could not eat anything until he did work as the pasuk says he was put into Gan Eden to work and protect
    3. רבי אומד גדולה היא מלאכה שכל מי שאינו עוסק במלאכה בני אדם משיחין בו, מניין איש פלוני אוכל, מניין הוא שותה
    Rebbi said work is good because anyone who doesn’t work people talk about him, from where does he eat, from where does he drink?
    4. ועוד היה רבי אומד גדולה היא מלאכה שכל מי שהוא עוסק במלאכה אין ידו חסרה פרוטה לעולם.
    Rebbi also said work is good, someone who works is never lacking for money.
    5. ועוד אמד רבי יוסי גדולה היא מלאכה שכל מי שאינו עוסק במלאכה הדי זה מתחייב בנפשו
    R’ Yosi also said, work is good because someone who doesn’t work will end up giving up their life.
    6. רבי מאיד אומר גמלה היא מלאכה שכל מי שאינו עושה מלאכה בחול סופו לעשותה בשבת
    R’ Meir said work is good because anyone who doesn’t work during the week will end up working on Shabbos.
    7. חביבה היא המלאכה, שהרי כל בריות שברא הקב״ה בעולמו, לא מסר להן מלאכה אלא לבני אדם בלבד. וכן היה ר׳ מאיר אומר
    ראית מימיך ארי אכר, צבי חייט, שועל כורם, או אחד מן החיות עושה מלאכה. [הרי אינן עושין מלאכה], והרי הן מתפרנסין בלא מלאכה- ובני אדם אין מתפרנסים אלא מן המלאכה לא מפני שהם קלים, אלא שהמלאכה חביבה-
    Work is valuable because out of all of the creature that Hashem created he only gave work to man. And R’ Meir used to say this as well, did you ever say a lion farmer, a deer tailor, a fox vintner or any animal every doing work? [We know they don’t do work] they get their food without working while people only get their food from work, not because it is easy but because work is valuable.
    8. חביבה היא המלאכה, שכל הנביאים נתעסקו בה. ביעקב אבינו הוא אומד, אשובה ארעה צאנך אשמר. במשה הוא אומד, ומשה היה רועה. בדוד הוא אומר״ ויקחהו ממכלאות צאן. בעמוס הוא אומר, כי נקר אנכי ובולם שקמים, ויקחני ה׳ מאחרי הצאן.
    Work is valuable as all of the prophets worked. … (description of their work)

    The מנורת המאור ח״ג פרק תלמוד תורה states:

    וחסידים הראשונים היו משתדלים לעשות מלאכה, כדי שיתפרנסו ממנה, ולא היו חוששין למלאכה פחותה, ואע״פ שהיו מהם נשיאים וראשי ישיבות וגדולי הדור, כגון ר׳ יוסי, שהיתה מלאכתו שהיה נושא עצים על כתפו, והיה שמח בחלקו ומשתבח במלאכתו, ואמד גדולה מלאכה שמחממת את בעליה.

    וכל מי שאינו עושה מלאכה להתפרנס ממנה הרי זה חוטא ומחטיא את הבריות. כיצד הוא חוטא, כיון שאינו עושה מלאכה להתפרנס ממנה, סופו בא לידי עניות וגונב את הבריות. כיצד מחטיא את הבריות, מפגי שמרגנין אחריו וחושדין אותו, ואומדין עליו, פלוני שהוא בטל ואינו עושה מלאכה, מניץ הוא אוכל״ מניין הוא שותה, עכ״ל.
    The early righteous men would try to work to support themselves and they were not afraid of difficult/embarrassing work even though they were the heads of the assembly, Rosh yeshivas and Gedolei Hador … (descriptions of the various Tannaim and their work).

    And anyone who doesn’t work to support himself is a sinner and causes other people to sin. How is he a sinner? Since he doesn’t work to support himself he come to be poor and then steal from people. How does he cause others to sin, because he cause people to talk about him, he doesn’t work from where does he eat, from where does he drink?

    We see from these many statements of Chazal that work is not simply a curse but it is a valuable thing that raises up a person to new heights.

    R’ Kasher concludes the essay with the following:

    הכתוב ,ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך״ שבעשרת הדברות מיחד ותופס מקום כבוד נעלה ורם בתולדות האנושות עד נצח. הערך המוסרי של העבודה קשור קשר אמיץ במנוחת השבת, כשם שהמוסריות של שלות השבת צומחת ויוצאת מעבודת השבוע. … חג המנוחה חוזר ונרכש ומתאשר תמיד
    מחדש על ידי עבודת ימי החול״.
    The pasuk six days you should toil and do your work that is in the ten commandments, takes a proud and high place in the annals of man. The moral value of work is tied tightly to the rest of shabbos, the morality of of the peaceful shabbos is derived from the work of the week.

    The holiday of rest is bought every week with the work of the week.

    This is not 1 מאמר חז”ל that can be dismissed, this is clearly something that Chazal felt strongly about and emphasised. There are many many more statements in Chazal praising work that I did not quote here. The fact that today in certain circles this is completely ignored is very sad.

    #1568703

    yitzyk
    Participant

    Since someone mentioned how in some circles, Work is a 4-letter word, let me quote from a recent edition of Rav Miller’s Q&A from the Toras Avigdor foundation. It is one of my favorite responsas:

    Q: The Rav has spoken to us often about common sense being an important part of how we approach certain questions. Wouldn’t common sense tell us that one has to work in order to make a living? So is sitting in kollel common sense?

    A: You have to know that you have touched on a very important subject. If a person has funds or his wife is an idealist and she prefers to work so that her husband can sit and learn, then as long as she prefers that, it will be a mitzvah to continue to learn in the kollel. But if she does not want or is not able to work, then he is michuyav, he is obligated, to support his wife. He made a kinyan when he got married. He committed himself. “Ana eflach.” I am going to work. “Ana eizan.” I am going to support my wife. He’s michuyav to go to work.
    It’s impossible for a decent man who doesn’t have any income to continue learning when he doesn’t have any way to support his family. Certainly he’s a choiteh! Certainly he’s a sinner; no question about it. And those people who dodge their responsibility and they therefore live in poverty and they’re suffering all kinds of troubles – just because they’re not willing to go out and support their families – those people are “asidin li’tein es ha’din.” No question about it. To be in kollel when it’s possible to be in kollel is a beautiful ideal. But when it’s not possible, it becomes a cheit, a sin.
    TAPE # E-189 (June 1999)

    #1568943

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    .

    #1568945

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a Midrash יכול יהי’ יושב בטל ת”ל בכל מעשך אשר תעשה I would think he should sit idly by and rely on Hashem, it says all your work that you “do’. We see that to be blessed we have to do some work.

    #1568972

    JJ2020
    Participant

    My understanding is that the amount you work does not affect your parnassa (beyond a minimum hishtaelus). There could be other benefits to working though such as, keeping busy as not to since, opportunity to be honest in your work and do mitzvos etc. Another piece has to do with our level of emuna and training ourselves to realize that parnassa is only from Hashem. Similarly someone who doesn’t really deeply believe and understand that parnassah is only from Hashem risks going OTD if he stops working and ends up poor. So that person has to work too. Most of what I’m saying is from michtav meliyahu and chovos lvavos.

    #1569061

    BisBoy
    Participant

    JJ2020 can you please provide exact source and/or quote?

    #1569102

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yitzyk, just because a man is independently wealthy does not necessarily mean that he should learn in kollel. Not everyone is suited to learn all day. It could be that his avoda is public service of some kind.

    As for the general topic, my understanding is that being that a person has no way of knowing what was decreed for him or how much personal effort he must make he must do all that he can. After the fact if it does not work out he can say that Hashem said “No”.

    #1569104

    catch yourself
    Participant

    The elephant in the room in this conversation is the fact that in general, people whose Hishtadlus lies in certain fields generally make more money.

    A doctor, for example, doesn’t necessarily work harder or more hours than a trucker, but the average income for doctors is significantly higher than it is for truckers.

    The question, then, is this:

    How do we reconcile this reality with the well known positions of the Torah referred to above?

    This is a very complex issue, and much time, thought and research must be devoted to it in order to have, if not a comprehensive explanation, at least a coherent approach.

    Two points that I think are very important to contemplate are:

    1. Not all people are equally governed by Hashgacha Pratis. To some degree, all people are governed by Teva. [That is to say, the Ratzon Hashem is that the general system He created, to which we refer as Teva, should govern those who do not merit or who, by dint of their own shortcomings, would not benefit from His direct governance.] This naturally results in generalities such as doctors earning more money.

    2. Depending on the specific nature of a person’s mission in this world, the way he exercises his Bechira could entail Hashem granting him more money. For example, person whose purpose in life is to be Marbitz Torah, but who chooses to become a lawyer, may be very successful so that he is able to fulfill his purpose by supporting institutions which are Marbitz Torah (Rav Dessler’s example, not mine).

    #1569116

    Avi K
    Participant

    Catch, after expenses (malpractice insurance, secretary, equipment, office rental, etc.0 the doctor might make less than the trucker. I worked in the actuarial field and once the VP fr the Actuarial Division commented that the high point of his career was when he made as much as a LIRR conductor. IMHO, a person should do what does l’shem Shemayim. That is to say, he should feel that he is doing what Hashem wants him to do in order to better the world i n some fashion.

    #1569260

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Avi K, that’s a red herring.

    The key word is “average”.

    I don’t think there can be any question which of those professions has a higher average net income, after taxes and all job-related expenses, outliers notwithstanding.

    #1569110

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    וכל מי שאינו עושה מלאכה להתפרנס ממנה הרי זה חוטא ומחטיא את הבריות. כיצד הוא חוטא, כיון שאינו עושה מלאכה להתפרנס ממנה, סופו בא לידי עניות וגונב את הבריות. כיצד מחטיא את הבריות, מפגי שמרגנין אחריו וחושדין אותו, ואומדין עליו, פלוני שהוא בטל ואינו עושה מלאכה, מניץ הוא אוכל״ מניין הוא שותה, עכ״ל.
    The early righteous men would try to work to support themselves and they were not afraid of difficult/embarrassing work even though they were the heads of the assembly, Rosh yeshivas and Gedolei Hador … (descriptions of the various Tannaim and their work).

    And anyone who doesn’t work to support himself is a sinner and causes other people to sin. How is he a sinner? Since he doesn’t work to support himself he come to be poor and then steal from people. How does he cause others to sin, because he cause people to talk about him, he doesn’t work from where does he eat, from where does he drink?

    We see from these many statements of Chazal that work is not simply a curse but it is a valuable thing that raises up a person to new heights.

    R’ Kasher concludes the essay with the following:

    הכתוב ,ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך״ שבעשרת הדברות מיחד ותופס מקום כבוד נעלה ורם בתולדות האנושות עד נצח. הערך המוסרי של העבודה קשור קשר אמיץ במנוחת השבת, כשם שהמוסריות של שלות השבת צומחת ויוצאת מעבודת השבוע. … חג המנוחה חוזר ונרכש ומתאשר תמיד
    מחדש על ידי עבודת ימי החול״.
    The pasuk six days you should toil and do your work that is in the ten commandments, takes a proud and high place in the annals of man. The moral value of work is tied tightly to the rest of shabbos, the morality of of the peaceful shabbos is derived from the work of the week.

    The holiday of rest is bought every week with the work of the week.

    This is not 1 מאמר חז”ל that can be dismissed, this is clearly something that Chazal felt strongly about and emphasised. There are many many more statements in Chazal praising work that I did not quote here. The fact that today in certain circles this is completely ignored is very sad.

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