Paskening from the Shulchan Aruch (without knowing the Gemara and Rishonim)

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  • #612896

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Bach: ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ?? ????? ??????? ??????

    Maharsha: ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???

    Maharam: ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ??”? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???

    Maadnei Yom Tov: ??? ????? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?”? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?’ ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????”? ?”? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????

    Pri Megadim: …??? ???”? ??????? ??”? ??? ????? ???”? ????

    Chayei Adam: ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ??”? ??????

    Perhaps a limud zechus is the Pischei Teshuva: ????? ????? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ?????? ??????? ??”? ??”? ???”? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??”? ?????????

    But the Aruch Hashulchan explicitly disputes the Pischei Teshuva’s suggestion (though not by name): ????? ?? ????? ??”? ?????”? ?”? ????? [?”? ?] ??”? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???’ ????? ??? ??????? ???’ ??? ????? ??? ??”? ??”? ????”? ?????? ????? ????”? ??”? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???’ ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??’ ??”? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??”? ???’ ??”? ???? ???”? ?????? ??????? ?? ??”? ???????? ???????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???”? ????????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????????? ??????? ?? ???? ?”? ?”? ????

    Although the Mishna Berura seemed to think that his work would solve the problem ???? ???????

    #1018324

    Look at the intro to yabia omer. Maran Ovadia has a huge essay about this topic. Also, the intro to the yalkut yosef kitzur shulchan aruch.

    #1018325

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Popa_bar_abba: The best way to get a psak halacha is to start a thread in the CR asking your shayla.

    #1018326

    pixelate
    Member

    @Patur Aval Assur

    what is ur point?

    #1018327

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    My point is that from what I see in my dealings with Orthodox Jews, their perception of the Shulchan Aruch does not fit with how the Gedolei HaAcharonim viewed it. I tried to be melamed zechus with the Pischei Teshuva but I brought the Aruch Hashulchan to disagree with the limud zechus. I brought the Mishna Berura as another limud zechus.

    #1018328

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “My point is that from what I see in my dealings with Orthodox Jews” Ulifi shehotzi atzmo.

    Besides, according to certain groups, you can google the question and select from what ever pops up as it suits you.

    I know that bot Rabbi Twerski and Rabbi Shachter have expressed displeasure at such methods,

    #1018329

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Patur: Reading what you posted, it would seem to me that the issue of paskening from the sh”a is not a question of whether the sh”a is right, rather it’s a matter of applying the correct laws of the sh”a without the proper background knowledge.

    In other words, everyone agrees that the sh”a is the basis to be machria on the underlying issues.

    #1018330

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Patur: Reading what you posted, it would seem to me that the issue of paskening from the sh”a is not a question of whether the sh”a is right, rather it’s a matter of applying the correct laws of the sh”a without the proper background knowledge.”

    The second issue definitely. As for whether the Sh”a is right, I think a better way to say it would be whether the Sh”a’s METHODOLOGY is right.

    #1018331

    PAA- Reb Yosef Karo did not intend for talmidei chachamim to pasken halacha from Shulchan Aruch- that’s why he only wrote it AFTER his Beis Yosef, and that’s why its so much shorter and contains less analysis of less early mekoros.

    #1018332

    147
    Participant

    If you are stuck on Desert Island, & have no phone nor internet access, please don’t hesitate to go by the Shulchon Orech. You will be in excellent hands, because even if nor every Acharon buys the Mechaber’s or Romo’s opinion, notwithstanding it is an exceedingly authentic opinion to be Somech on.

    #1018333

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    rationalfrummie:

    I understand that. In fact he tells us what he wrote it for.

    ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ?’ ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??, ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??, ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??, ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???, ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ????, ???????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????, ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ????, ????????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????

    #1018334

    pixelate
    Member

    @Patur Aval Assur

    I tried to be melamed zechus with the Pischei Teshuva but I brought the Aruch Hashulchan to disagree with the limud zechus. I brought the Mishna Berura as another limud zechus.

    How can you pasken from the Aruch Hashulchan’s quote not to pasken from The shulchan aruch? The answer is that the Aruch Hashulchan and the Mishna Brura are the answer. not a limud zechus.

    No one ever paskens nowadays straight from the Shulchan Aruch, ever.

    #1018335

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “How can you pasken from the Aruch Hashulchan’s quote not to pasken from The shulchan aruch?”

    I’m not PASKENING from the Aruch Hashulchan. I’m just pointing out that having commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t solve the problem.

    I’ll give an example where if you just read the Sh”a and Mishna Berura without background knowledge,you may end up with the wrong halacha: The Sh”a says (O.C. 9:5) that some say that the tzitzis have to be the same color as the begged. The Rema argues that Ashkenazim should only make white strings regardless of the color of the begged. The Mishna Berura brings down the suggestion of the acharonim that in order to avoid this machlokes one should only wear a white begged with white strings.

    Now let’s say that one is deciding whether to wear Techeiles or not. Someone who only learned the Sh”a and Mishna Berura will say (and I’ve heard many people say this) that on the chance that it’s not real techeiles, they will be wearing a white begged with blue strings, in violation of the Sh”a, the Rema, AND the Mishna Berura.

    However, if the person had started with the gemara, he would know that the gemara says that even kala ilan (fake techeiles) is no worse than white strings and therefore there would be no problem. AAAIII, the Sh”a says it is a problem! Well if this person would know even more gemara, he would know that the reason why the colors would have to be the same is because the strings have to be min knaf* which doesn’t apply to techeiles strings. While you won’t find this in the Sh”a/ Mishna Berura, you can find it in the Artzos Hachaim, the Chazon Ish, and other more obscure places that this person who learns Sh”a with Mishna Berura won’t see.

    *According to Tosafos the reason for the colors being the same is zeh keli veanveihu which would also clearly not apply to the techeiles strings which won’t be the same color as the begged even if it’s real techeiles. (There are those [the Smag as explained by the Chazon Ish, and presumably the Levush) who hold that when you don’t have techeiles, the strings that would have been techeiles take on the status of regular non-techeiles strings, but there’s no problem because they also hold that there is no inyan in the first place of having the colors be the same)

    #1018336

    son
    Member

    ^But then you would have to see Teshuvos v’Hanhagos vol. 6 from Rav Sternbach that says you’re over bal tosif if you wear today’s techeiles. 🙂

    #1018337

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “But then you would have to see Teshuvos v’Hanhagos vol. 6 from Rav Sternbuch that says you’re over bal tosif if you wear today’s techeiles. :)”

    He does not say that. He says that it MIGHT be bal tosif. If it’s real techeiles then it for sure isn’t bal tosif. If it’s not real techeiles, then it shouldn’t be any different than doing any mitzvah with a cheftza that is safek kosher e.g. tefillin, esrog etc. R’ Shternbuch is MECHADESH a chiluk in order to say that techeiles is different. And even if theoretically bal tosif would be an issue, you can just make a tenai that if it’s not real techeiles then it’s not l’shem mitzvah (which R’ Shternbuch himself acknowledges).

    #1018338

    pixelate
    Member

    @Patur Aval Assur

    you’re bringing a remote example of an inference you say one would make from what the mishna brura omits.

    What you’re talking about is a personal svara, and until they speak to a rav to make sure their svara isn’t flawed, they cannot and don’t pasken.

    There is no such thing as anyone who’s not a rav, paskening for themselves to or to not wear tecehiles. Most people aren’t familiar with all the intricacies of hilchos tzitsis, and any argument either side gives is most probably flawed, because they do not know even slightly what their talking about, and at the end of the day they don’t wear techeiles or do wear techelies based on their respective gadol’s custom, not because of their idiotic arguments.

    I’ll give you a contemporary example of paskening yourself. The rema says that during sefira, you can take a haircut on friday before sunday lag ba’omer, for the honor of shabbos. Now, someone who is holding ‘second half’ of sefira, who can haircut on shloshes yemei hagbala (this sunday) will use the parallel logic to pasken that they can haircut today, on friday. But in reality, it’s a machlokes haposkim, and the world is machmir in most cases.

    The bottom line is, if it’s explicitly in the arcuh hashulchan, or the mishna brura, you can pasken from it. but because so much more is encompassed than meets the eye, and it takes a real posek to determine unwritten halacha, No one ever just paskens for themselves. EVER.

    #1018339

    bhe (Joseph)
    Participant

    Some people can pasken for themselves.

    #1018340

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “What you’re talking about is a personal svara, and until they speak to a rav to make sure their svara isn’t flawed, they cannot and don’t pasken.”

    Where did I mention a personal sevara?

    #1018341

    pixelate
    Member

    @bhe

    Some people can pasken for themselves.

    yes. poskim.

    But anyone else who even knows thoroughly how to learn cannot pasken for themselves w/o knowing applicable t’suvos.

    #1018342

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “But anyone else who even knows thoroughly how to learn cannot pasken for themselves w/o knowing applicable t’suvos.”

    You ask a posek before everything you do?

    #1018343

    pixelate
    Member

    @Patur Aval Assur

    You ask a posek before everything you do?

    No. I follow the psak of either the mishna brurua or the aruch hashulchan. but i never pasken things omitted by them for myself.

    #1018344

    pixelate: Everybody many times encounter situations that require an on-the-spot decision that may have halachic ramifications without the ability to ask a shaila.

    #1018346

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The quote from his Hakdama actually says that it is for

    Halacha Lemaase. The issue is about using the dry Halacha, without knowing any background, to decide on a case that comes up. The issue is not about following the Halacha as written.

    The Beis Yosef in Hlichos Tzitzis quotes an Achron who made a mistake before he looked up the source quoted by the Tur, and changed everything when he saw the Mekor. The Beis Yosef says that he brings the whole piece to show how important it is to follow the source to its origin.

    #1018347

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    He says it’s for kids and for chazara so that you will have all of halacha at your fingertips. That does not necessarily mean that it is meant to be a primary source.

    #1018348

    son
    Member

    Patur: He says that all the hochachos against it from the kuntrus stand strong and doesn’t really leave an “if” in the balance before laying bal tosif on it as far as I understand – but yes seemingly the t’nai would work (even though it really seems likely he’s completely sholel the option that it is techeiles)

    In any case l’inyaneinu – HaRav Yisroel Mishklov in the hakdama to Peas HaShulchan that the Biur HaGra pushes off the concerns the Maharsha had since anyone who learns it can be medakdek in the sugyos and shittos.

    pixelate: When the Aruch HaShulchan and Mishna Berura give two different psaks what do you do?

    #1018349

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “He says that all the hochachos against it from the kuntrus stand strong and doesn’t really leave an “if” in the balance”

    If you want to debate the hochachos, I’ll be waiting for you at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles

    “the Biur HaGra pushes off the concerns the Maharsha had since anyone who learns it can be medakdek in the sugyos and shittos.”

    Obviously the Maharsha would have no problem with someone who is medakdek in the sugyos and shittos when learning Sh”a. He never said that you shouldn’t learn it. His whole objection was that people learn it without being medakdek in the sugyos and shittos. So the fact that theoretically you could be medakdek does not address the Maharsha.

    #1018350

    pixelate
    Member

    @son

    When the Aruch HaShulchan and Mishna Berura give two different psaks what do you do?

    the Aruch Hashulchan

    #1018351

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ?? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??

    #1018352

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “?? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??”

    Exactly. He is already a Talmid Chacham and the Sh”a will help him keep his knowledege of halacha at his fingertips.

    #1018353

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You seem to be mixing two things. Paskening from only the Shulchan Aruch is Halomed Mitoch Hamishna, as the Maharal explains. You must know the reason in order to be Medameh Milsa Lamilsa. You are adding to this that it wasn’t meant as a Psak. This is not the case. Perhaps we didn’t have to Pasken like the Mechaber at the time, but many have said that Klal Yisroel accepted it as their Psak.

    This actually follows the reasoning of the Beis Yosef as to why he usually Paskens from the Rif, Rambam and the Rosh. There might have been many that were equal or perhaps greater, but these took the pains to write Halacha.

    We find that it works this way in Shas as well. We Pasken like Shmuel in Dinim. If the reason would be that he knows better then why would Rav argue? The idea is that we follow the one who was practicing. This is why some people Pasken like the Aruch Hashulchan over the Mishna Berura, since the former was a practicing Rav.

    #1018354

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haleivi:

    What I am talking about is paskening from only the shulchan Aruch (even with the Mishna Berura). Yes the statements of the SHulchan Aruch represent R’ Yosef Karo’s conclusions, but without knowing the background you might misapply it and there might be things that you are just totally unaware of. I was not talking about in terms of halacha l’maaseh being machria like the Sh”a vs. other poskim, which happens to be an interesting discussion. Clearly all the commentaries who sometimes argue with the Sh”a, did not accept it as their psak.

    Also, the Mishna Berura “took the pains to write Halacha” the same way R’ Karo did, yet you consider him to be non-practicing. Unless you are simply saying that the A”H was MORE practicing than the M”B, in which case who is to say that the Sh”A was the most practicing codifier of halacha?

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