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If I brought my car to the mechanic because of an unusual sound while driving, and the mechanic cleaned the car rotors and charged me $80. After driving I found that the noise still continued, so I brought it back to him, and he determined the issue was with something else. Do I have to pay him for cleaning the rotors?
Also, when asked about replacing 2 tires, he quoted $110 each. After I picked up the car he said he hadn’t realized I needed a different type of tire and billed me $125 each. Do I have to pay the difference.
you are lucky that your job was only $80 I had an issue with the air condition so the mechanic changed the compressor for $425 and the problam did not resolved so the mechanic said that I also have a leak somewhere alse and to fix it he needs to open the dash board and it will be an additional $600!!! At wich point I decided its time for a new car.
Excellent question, shlishi, to which I don’t know the answer. Try sending it to one or more of the email Choshen Mishpat services, and kindly share the results. I know a mumcheh in C.M.; I’ll try to ask, and share the answer (but not to be relied on for halacha l’meisa, of course).
I’ll also take my own guess first; that it depends on what normal practice is, as well as (in the first case) whether the maintenance was required anyhow.
IOW, for the first shaila, the answer might depend on:
1) If standard procedure is to clean the rotors as a first response. If so, since a mechanic is not a navi, he may be entitled to compensation, and,
2) if the rotors needed cleaning anyway, that might be an additional factor.
For the second shaila, it probably depends on whether most consumers would assume that the mechanic would do the more expensive job without asking, if the difference is not great. Besides, if you needed the more expensive tires, you would have agreed anyhow.
I think he still should have called you, and possibly, if it was his error, honored the cheaper price anyway, but I don’t know if there’s any recourse.
Oh, and my advice is, if he’s generally a good, honest, and reasonable mechanic, don’t quibble even if you’re right (although you could nicely discuss a discount on the rotor cleaning since it was not needed).
To answer your questions, you need a rov, but…
I will tell you this:
An honest car mechanic is almost an oxymoron, but there are a few out there. Find one and stay with him even he charges a few bucks more than average.
p.s. – if your mechanic tells you he changed your headlight fluid, it’s definitely time to look for a new guy!
Ask a Rov, But I would assume the rotors no, the tires yes – unless you would not have done it for $125.
For the tires, you can say look, you quoted me $110, and that’s what I agreed to pay. I don’t want to pay $125, and you never called me with the price change. Please put my old tires back on. Chances are he’ll agree to let you have them for $110.
It all depends on whether this is your steady mechanic that you trust. A mechanic you don’t know should call you before he does any work to let you know what he is going to do and how much it will cost you. A mechanic that you normally go to and normally fixes your car does what he thinks you want him to do to make your car safe and in working order. In that case, he does what is needed and you pay him for it.
I don’t know what rotors are, but if they needed to be cleaned, and could have caused the noise then they should be cleaned. Cars need regular maintenance and if you neglected to give it the care it needs it will cost you in the end. So it is all a matter of trust. Either you trust him or not. If you don’t you can ask him to show you the proof that the tires cost more or you want to pay the agreed upon price, or that you don’t want new tires at all.
Feif Un,
Standard procedure for a mechanic is to do the job anyhow even if the price is a bit more than quoted (as long as there was a legitimate reason that the price quoted isn’t correct – he can’t just arbitrarily raise it).
DY – Why not? Its not like it took more labor type of thing – that it took longer then excpected – then I would agree that he cant raise the price. But if it took more, or more expensive parts than I wouldn’t agree with you.
Sorry, r-b, I don’t understand what you’re saying.
Mechanics are know for taking their customers for well, a ride.
Chalk this one up to experience and next time take the time to learn about your car.
DY – Sorry. I am being mechalek from what you said that the mechanic cant charge more if it costed him more. I only agree with that point if it took more time to then excpected do the job, then he cant charge more. However if he needed more epensive parts, I dont see any reason why he cant charge more. Hope this is clear.
shlishi, Based on your comments in the H&M thread, I have no way of answering you.
If you wanted a response based on New York law, you’ve already indicated you don’t follow the law inasmuch as you condone the commission of the crime of Criminal Mischief as long as the perpetrators are not caught. So the law is out.
On the other hand, if it is a question regarding Halacha, you apparently believe that one can destroy the property of another without asking a rav for his approval beforehand and that one need not even ask a rav for his opinion afterwards. So Halacha is out.
Then which is it, law, Halacha or some other standard of “ethics” or “morality?”
r-b,
You might have misunderstood me (maybe I wasn’t clear), so I’ll restate.
If it took the mechanic more time than he legitimately thought, or the part cost more than he legitimately thought, or the part required (as in shlishi’s tires) was more expensive than than the mechanic had thought, then the mechanic CAN charge the difference. This is only if it’s reasonable to assume that the customer would have agreed had he been quoted this price to begin with. (IMHO, it still would be proper to ask the customer first, but OTOH it’s not always easy for the mechanic to reach the customer.)
If the mechanic just decided to make more profit, then he CANNOT charge more than he originally stated. (????? ????).
These ????? are still somewhat complicated, because ????? ???? only gives limited recourse to the customer; he can’t insist in ?”? that it be done at the original price if he was informed before the work was done.
This is based on a brief conversation with a ?”? who knows these ????? well, limited to my understanding.
Homeowner,
Not fair. In that particular circumstance, even if you or I disagree with him, shlishi feels that halacha allows for the consequential damage cause by covering the sign. He does not advocate ignoring halacha, or hold that it is generally permissible to damage another person’s property.
I dont have a car and end up taking car services pretty often. My sister was trying to convince me that although its not as convenient, as many car services as I will take, it will still be cheaper than owning a car. When I hear these mechanic stories, I start to believe her.
DY – He can charge more if the parts cost more, regardless if he informed them in advance that it will cost more. If the recipent doesnt want to pay – he can take them out.
If the mechanic overcharged for the parts, (say for example, ona’ah), I would think that it would be the mechanic’s obligation to take it out!
I once asked a shaila: If I order something at a certain price and it’s delivered but invoiced at a higher price, can I keep it and pay the lower price?
I was told no, because ????? ???? is wrong on the part of the seller, but unenforceable on the part of the buyer. However, I can tell them that they have to come pick it up; I have no obligation to send it back (but, of course, I can’t use it).
The variable in the case of a mechanic is that within a certain price range, it can be assumed that the buyer would have agreed, because he definitely needs tires. I suppose each case would have to be evaluated individually.
shlishi,
If the halacha is unclear, it would make a difference, because of ?????? ?????. So if for example, you brought the mechanic to a ??? ???? about the rotors, and the mechanic claimed that normal procedure is to try cleaning the rotors as the preliminary measure, and you brought some sort of evidence otherwise and the ?????? were uncertain about his claim, had you paid, they wouldn’t obligate him to repay you, but OTOH, had you not yet paid, they wouldn’t obligate you to pay (although in reality they would probably insist on a ????).
I’m not sure how whether or not you have your car back would impact anything; there’s no question that it’s yours anyhow.
Deiyezooger; In your case, I would say that you need a new mechanic (Rather than a new car.)
shlishi,
I’m not associated with any ?”?, but I’m told that ?????? put extreme pressure on the ???? ??? to come to a ???? unless the case has a totally obvious ???. I don’t know if they can technically force them; I would think you’re right that they can’t.
metrodriver,
Not necessarily; A/C problems can be tough to diagnose and sometimes there are multiple leaks.
I don’t know, I’ll ask, ??”?, but I suppose when the ??????, who are very ????? ?”?, strongly recommend a ????, most people will agree.
shlishi, and like all good Jews, I don’t pasken for myself or others. I advocate asking a rav if at all possible before doing something halachically questionable, and if one cannot ask beforehand, then surely afterwards.
Amazing how you have such clarity in the H&M matter.
Daas Yochid, I am sorry, but I do not understand your message.
Homeowner,
My point is that I thought you misrepresented shlishi’s approach as being beyond halacha.
Undoubtedly, one who is not capable should not pasken on his own. But we are entitled to express our halachic opinions in the CR and ask if we don’t have an opinion.(Anyone who follows through IRL on something he exclusively saw here is a fool.)
shlishi – You sound like my twin. I brought my car into Meineke in Howell and they told me I need brakes. I went to my mechanic and he said no way. I was thinking of going back to Meineke for the $26 that I had to pay my mechanic for checking out the brakes and if they refused to take them to small claims court. I decided I’m too lazy.
I have an appt. tomorrow with the mechanic to replace two tires. He said it’s $110 per tire. He better not charge me $125!
When I lived in Brooklyn, I had a mechanic who I used. His prices weren’t the cheapest, and the personality of the people working there wasn’t always the greatest – let’s just say you weren’t always greeted with a smile and leave it at that. However, I knew that he was definitely 100% honest, and would never try to rip me off. That made it worth using him.
Daas Yochid; In reference to your point that A/C problems are sometimes hard to diagnose. (RE: Deiyezooger’s experience with his mechanic.) The mechanic should have told him at the outset that the compressor needs to be changed and there might be additional problems in terms of leaks which he will only be able to determine after the new compressor is in.
If at the end of the day the can’t force them, how do they pressure them?
I’m told that many botei din will refuse outright to pasken din, and will tell the ba’alei din that if they refuse p’shara, they can go elsewhere.
metrodriver,
Excellent point.
There is, though, a difference between lack of ehrlichkeit (or thoughtfulness) and outright thievery.
shlishi,
There are some .?.? that will pasken ???, but your point is well taken; if the defendant would Insist on ???, that should force the plaintiff to find a .?.? that will pasken ???.
Daas Yochid; I agree with your pointing out the distinction between unnecessary or exploratory/experimental work (on the part of the mechanic) and outright thievery. A good example is “Cleaning the Rotors”. To the best of my knowledge, (I’m no mechanic but I’ve spent a good chunk of my life in repair shops due to the fact that I’ve never owned a brand new car that needs little unscheduled service.) the rotors (which are part of the braking system.) need no cleaning. When they wear down unevenly, they have to be cut. Which is one step before replacing them. That’s why when the mechanic said that he “Cleaned” the rotors he was actually cleaning the customer’s wallet. That’s like changing the fluid in the headlights or recycling the air in the tires.
Shlishi,
I sure hope the batei din have it figured out by now! Most of the time, BTW, it makes much more sense for the ???? ????? to just go to a rov proficient in C.M. without a formal beis din.
metrodriver,
I actually thought “cleaning the rotors” was being used to mean cutting the rotors.
Walmart has the best prices on headlight fluid. 🙂
“Deiyezooger; In your case, I would say that you need a new mechanic (Rather than a new car.)”
with the new car I need NO machenic. have not seen one since buying the new car (more then 2 years) only for oil change and NYS auto inspection.
DY – No Jokes, you know some cars have headlight wipers, I thinkh they have washer fluid also.
r-b,
Maybe, but they use the same tank as the windshield fluid. (Actually, I doubt they use fluid at all, but I have seen those wipers.)
i needed cleaned rotars, i put it on craigslist under “gigs” and a drunk did it for $15! he did a bunch of work for $45, even went and picked up and installed 02 censors. took him 3 hours. u just put ur ad in there and put “best offer”. i get like 20 responses, half angry that i found the loophole in their industry.
i always ask those people “how much per hour” that way i can be like “what!, i only make $14 an hour!” otherwise they charge per job and and get $150 an hour. and most of them come to you, theres no warranties or anything but i figure its so cheap i can have the work done twice if needed…
DY – Yeah, but it can be called headlight fluid also 😉
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