Peace Plan

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  • #1607815

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, lies again. The Fakestinians had a problem before Jews took control of the land. The Fakestinians had a problem when Jews started coming in large numbers, before and after WW2, during the times of the Ottoman and British rule.

    And Jews did take take control of the land the Fakestinians LIVED ON, NOT GOVERNED, because they had no goverment at all untill the land was devided between Jews and Fakestinians so Jews did not control the Fakestinians at the time the Fakestinians attacked the Jews in an all-out war.

    #1607820

    philosopher
    Participant

    Joseph, Israel should annex Judea, Samaria, and Gaza and if the Arab Muslims accept Israel and live peacefully as other Arab minorities do, (which won’t happen in any case…) then I would grant them citizenship.

    I would also initiate a program that would encourage Arab Muslims to emigrate to other Arab countries and encourage Jews to move to Judea, Samaria and Gaza to balance the Jewish and Muslim populations.

    #1607821

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @avi no difference.
    @00464 Um, actually some people don’t support the current zionist state as they do not uphold all of the religious values. A muslim state would support same gender marriage or allow abortion, the israeli state does.

    Many people are against modern zionism.
    Also you don’t offer citizenship to people who will kill you. It’s just not a smart idea.

    #1607862

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    How did Israel come to control the West Bank and Gaza if not by military force? What am I missing here?

    #1607925

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, you are missing the fact that the Arabs attacked Jews and Jews won the war. You are missing the fact that Jews had to control the area because they needed to prevent it becoming bases for terrorists which is exactly what happened after Israel gave over control to the Arabs. Now there are constant fights on the border with these wild animals trying to come into Israel and ATTACK Jews. Now we have rockets coming in from Gaza and helium balloons which has destroyed half of Israel’s nature reserves and personal property of innocent people.

    #1607868

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    00646 The arabs CHOSE to go to war against us. WE did not START that war, they did.
    In the fighting we ended up getting some of their land.

    There’s a difference between taking land won in a war and going into a peaceful country that hasd done nothing to you and going in with a military force to steal the land.

    It’s not like one day we decided “Hey, we should get more land”. It was like one day “Hey we should stop these people from murdering us, and in the battle the land fell into our hands”.

    Also hey were USING that land to throw rockets at us. It was a desolate horrible place run by terrorists.

    In any case I do not believe that 1. You are a Jew and 2. Your intentions here are pure.
    You sound like some bored liberal pro BDS non-jew who wants to either pick a fight or think in some twisted way you will show us the “Great light”. I think I should know more about Israel than you. I LIVE HERE. I know people who DIED over palestinians coming into their homes and murdering them. It is because of palestinians that I cannot fully feel safe IN MY COUNTRY.

    We won that land FAIR AND SQUARE. It was a WAR.

    #1607873

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    As I said, the Jews immigrated there and defended themselves which ultimately led to establishing a state. That state later on GAVE the West Bank and Gaza to the terrorists as a failed peace attempt.

    You’re missing A LOT here. The territories to which you keep referring were actually graciously given to the Arabs in failed land-for-peace deals. They were part of Israel proper along with the entire Sinai Peninsula. I don’t think you’re actually so stupid that you aren’t aware of these facts. I think you’re just choosing to only believe in what suits your antisemitic opinions. But, I could be wrong. Maybe you really are just that stupid.

    #1607976

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    Your facts are wrong. The West Bank and Gaza weren’t graciously given to the Palistinians. Israel took over them in 1967 and has kept those living there stateless under their control. That’s the status quo and that’s the issue.

    The Arab population didn’t agree to the partition plan in 1948. Which was their right. But either way that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing the territories that Israel took control of in 1967.

    #1607977

    000646
    Participant

    Also the 1929 massacre was a brutal, horrible and criminal act. The Zionist movement was quite strong then. It was absolutely in response to the Zionist movement there. It was a horrible and disgusting criminal act. There is no justification for it. But to say that it disproves the notion that prior to the Zionist movement gathering steam the Jews and Arabs in the land got along is false.

    #1607992

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, I already posted that. However, to save you the trouble of scrolling up I will repeat it. They should be offered a generous emigration package by an international fund. According to polls the vast majority would take it. Those who stay should be offered either full citizenship on condition that they sign a loyalty oath and do national service. The rest should receive permanent residency with full personal rights (e.g. labor laws would apply to them) but no political rights.

    DY, Mendelssohn also thought that denying are national aspect and would solve all our problems. The Dreyfuss case proved him wrong and the Holocaust settled it.

    #1608011

    philosopher
    Participant

    00646, really now, it was the Arabs right to refuse the Partition Plan… because they were mostly immigrants and children of immigrants? Just exactly who decided they didn’t have to accept it? Are you also going to condone their starting a war against Jews?

    #1608012

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    646: Is it also the Zionists’ fault when you Muslims beat your wives? Is it the Zionists’ fault Muslim refugees assault women in Europe? Is ISIS the Zionists’ fault?

    Face it, Islam is the problem. Zionism is an internal problem within Judaism that we can and do argue here. You, my friend, are sad and confused if you thought Chareidi anti-Zionism was the same thing as the kind of terrorist sympathizing you seem to be into.

    #1608025

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also the 1929 massacre was a brutal, horrible and criminal act. The Zionist movement was quite strong then. It was absolutely in response to the Zionist movement there. It was a horrible and disgusting criminal act. There is no justification for it. But to say that it disproves the notion that prior to the Zionist movement gathering steam the Jews and Arabs in the land got along is false.

    I agree with this.

    It should tell you what we’re dealing with, though.

    #1608029

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    They had a right to refuse it because they lived in the land it affected. Do you disagree that the people who live in a land should have the right to determine who governs it?

    Daas Yochid,

    It definitely tells me that your dealing with people you shouldn’t try to control or govern without them wanting you to do so.

    #1608052

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Do you disagree that the people who live in a land should have the right to determine who governs it?”

    The way they tried to determine it was by committing mass murders against innocent Jews at universities and hospitals. So, you admit without hesitation that terrorism is their “right,” in your opinion? So, basically you fully back their holy jihad. You still expect us to believe you are Jewish?

    Sorry you weren’t born in the right generation to support Adolf. You and him would have been two peas in a pod.

    #1608059

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    I never condoned or said that killing anyone was ok for anyone. I definitely never said anyone has a right to commit acts of terror. You keep saying random things and not addressing any points I am making.

    #1608145

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, that exactly what a lot of Jew haters say. I don’t hate Jews, I don’t condone terror, etc. It’s all a bunch of baloney when you support people who commit terror and are committed to engaging in terror. You are a Jew hater and terrorist supporter.

    #1608235

    Avi K
    Participant

    000646, not if they do not belong there. Besides, do you think that they will govern themselves should they be given a state c”v? Both the Abbas regime and Hmas are brutal kleptocracies that trample on basic civil rights. Moreover, Abbas is 83, in very poor health and has no successor. This means that when he goes the way of all flesh there will be a very nasty civil war. This is why those Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship are insistent that they remain Israeli citizens. As for those who don’t, the best thing for them is Jordanian citizenship. They can vote for the Jordanian parliament just as I can vote for Congress and POTUS. They can even be given exterritorial seats as in the French
    Assembly of French Citizens Abroad and National Assembly, which has eleven seats for expats.

    #1608257
    #1608258

    (Forgot to add: All references to “Lior” in that thread refer to Joseph.)

    #1608323

    000646
    Participant

    Avik,

    I have no doubt that making them all Israeli citizens would be great for them. I think most of them would probably take such citizenship if it gave them full equal rights and the right to vote etc. As would making them Jordanian citizens However that would end Israel as a Jewish state, Jordan is not going to take them, and no European country has any interest in taking them either.

    They belong in those lands just as much as Jews and Europeans belong in New York, if you believe that Native Americans would be wrong if they came back to their ancestral homeland of New York and took away any of the rights of those who live there now, then you have to apply the same standard to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

    Who they elect to rule them in their own state would be their own problem, as would any civil war. Also if they were to attack to Israel as a sovereign state they would be defeated in a single afternoon. The chances of them attempting this are actually smaller if they are an actual state. Even countries which large powerful armies in the region are reluctant to attack Israel for this exact reason.

    The status quo where you have them all living stateless under Israeli military control without any say in the matter or ability to self determine as a people just produces generations of people who see the military that is controlling the lands in which they live as a mortal enemy and gives them a cause to fight for. As UNJUSTIFIED as the Methods they use are (there is NEVER EVER an excuse to harm an innocent person let alone commit the atrocities that have been committed against Israeli children etc) by controlling them with military force against their will you are giving them a legitimate grievance, and something to fight against.

    Just give them their own state and let them do whatever they want with it, if they want to be ruled by religious fanatics or fight a civil war who cares? It won’t be Israel’s problem any longer. If they are stupid enough to attack Israel fro their new state then treat it as you would if Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Iran attacked. No one has tried since 1967 and I doubt they would even attempt it though.

    #1608330

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    From the other thread regarding 646’s aprikorses:
    “Randomex: 000646. He’s more or less respectful about it so they let him stay. I think. I’m not a mod.”

    Maybe it’s about time they stopped letting him stay. Explicitly siding with terrorists could fall under the realm of not being “more or less respectful about it.”

    #1608340

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    646: To your specific points:

    The point that Israel invaded Palestine: we did respond. If you chose to ignore it, it’s not our problem.
    The point that most Palestinians aren’t bad: we did respond to this also, you ignored it.
    The point that Jews are evil for “occupying” Palestine: this is a Jewish site, please kindly find your way to the exit.
    The point that the Palestinians should be able to build an army to kill Jews more efficiently: this is a Jewish site, please kindly find your way to the exit.
    The point that it’s immoral for Jews to defend ourselves: this is a Jewish site, please kindly find your way to the exit.

    #1608526

    philosopher
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin, +1

    #1608596

    Avi K
    Participant

    000646, they already have a state. It is called Jordan. The fact of the matter is they do not want a state. That is why they do not declare one and why Arafat ym”s refused Ehud Barak’s offer of 99% of Judea and Samaria plus eastern Jerusalem. They prefer eternal victimhood. That is the highest honor a leftist can bestow.

    #1608617

    000646
    Participant

    Avik,

    The Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are not Jordanian Citizens. They also were living in the West Bank and Gaza BEFORE Israel took control of those areas. How does it make sense to say that Jordan is their state when they can’t live there and have never lived there??

    I’m not questioning if the Palestinian leadership failed them. I don’t think Israel’s current leaders are that great either. I am just saying that the only moral and fair solution is a two state solution with the Palestinians having their own state. I also think that most Palestinians would accept a state on 1967 borders.

    #1609215

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, didn’t you see the bright red exit signs? You are repeating the same stupidity over and over again. The Fakestinians have their own governments that THEY ELECTED. Stop blaming Jews for the Fakestinian troubles.

    #1609266

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    Literally nobody denies that the IDF controls the West Bank in practically every meaningful way. There are actually Israeli towns there. Again, you give the unfortunate impression of having never read anything against your positions ever. (You actually thought the Palistinians in those territories were Israeli citizens until Oslo). Gaza is sealed by the Israeli military as well, no one and nothing can leave or enter without the IDFs permission.

    I have said nothing that condones terror or the killing of anyone. All I have said is that the status quo is not sustainable and that the only option that will keep Israel both democratic and Jewish (the only moral way to have a modern Jewish state) is a two state solution.

    #1609270

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    Are you denying that the IDF took over those territories and controls them by force? How in your version of events did and does Israel maintain control there?

    I have never used the words Jews and Evil in the same sentence. I have never said anything about it being wrong for Israel to defend itself. In fact I said that I think that giving the Palistinians a state would make it easier for Israel to defend itself should they attack. I have literally never said anything about a Palistinian army either, let alone that I’d like them to kill Jews more efficiently.

    You keep saying random things that have nothing to do with anything I’m saying.

    #1609274

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You don’t seem biased at all, sir.

    #1609301

    Avi K
    Participant

    646,
    1. Jordan was carved out of the British Mandate of Palestine in 1922 in violation of the San Remo agreement.
    2. Jordan illegally annexed Judea and Samaria in 1948, conferred citizenship on the Arabs there and later revoked it. It is already 70% Fakestinian. Many Arab notables in J-S see Abdullah II as their king (and ave compleat contempt for the PA kleptocracy).
    3. Do you believe that hashem gave EY to the Jewish people? Read Rashi’s first comment on the Chumash.

    #1609303

    Doing my best
    Participant

    646,
    the Fakestanians have gaza which was given (maybe back to them, i don’t know) to them by israel to create peace as part of a deal, look what happened- terrorist attacks every day, intense rocket fire on and off. If you give them even more land why will it be any different than what happened to gaza?
    Also the Fakestanians don’t want a two state solution as proven by the fact that they chant “from the river to the sea”- that means the entire israel, not half!

    #1609318

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, Gaza is sealed at the ISREALI BORDER as EVERY country seals their borders to the best of their abilities. Or do you have a double standard for Israel that they can’t seal their border? Maybe Egypt should open their border with Gaza?! Why do you think Israel should open their border and let hordes of terrorists cross over into Israel?!

    And I couldn’t give a hoot and I never concerned myself whether the Fakestinians had or didn’t have citizenship because I totally understand the fact they didn’t did not have citizenship. The Fakestinians wouldn’t appreciate citizenship and it it would be a big problem like the Muslim Arabs in East Jerusalem, only a bigger security issue because more terrorists would be involved. So I certainly don’t shed any tears over the fact that they had no citizenship.

    In any case, stop harping on what was, now they have their own government, including in the West Bank where Israel CANNOT do what they want, except in your mind.

    #1609325

    000646
    Participant

    Avik,

    Your points aren’t really relevant. All that matters from their point of view is that now they are stuck where they are living under military control against their will.

    Philospher,

    Gaza is on the ocean. Israel wouldn’t have to open its border to let things in and out of Gaza. Your denial of the fact that Israel controls the West Bank is easily refuted. There are Israeli settlements there and even the Israeli government doesn’t deny that it controls the area.

    Of course they would like to be equal citizens. It just wouldn’t be a Jewish state any longer if there were. They definitely wouldn’t want to be citizens of a state where they didn’t have the same rights as the Jewish population.

    Doing my best,

    Gaza was “given back” and then blockaded in. Including on the side that opens to the ocean. While there is NO justification for shooting rockets at innocent civilians blockading them in gives them a valid grievance. It doesn’t help and it’s not sustainable to do it forever.

    #1609345

    philosopher
    Participant

    . 0002646 says Gaza is only surrounded by Israel and the sea, which is totally untrue. Gaza shares a border with Egypt too and it’s just as closed as Israel’s is. Egypt does not want Fakestinian terrorists and Muslim Brotherhood supporters, which a large percentage of Fakestinians are. But nobody is saying a word against Egypt, only against, drumroll please, Israel! And Israel does open the border (checking everyone going through of course) when the security situation “lightens”.

    The Fakestinians make their evil intentions known on social media sites, through their media networks, and through the Hamas charter. That is the reason for the blockade, to prevent them importing arms for use in their “struggle”.

    Everyone knows their true intentions

    edited

    עצי עצה וספר דברו דבר ולא יקון כי אמנו קל

    #1609348

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    In all the passion and rhetoric here, some misconceptions have crept in.
    “There are Israeli settlements there and even the Israeli government doesn’t deny that it controls the area. ”
    the West bank is divided into 3 areas- A, B, C. I forget which is which, but one area is fully under Israeli control- those include the Israeli towns and “settlements”. Then there are those areas that are fully under Palestinian Authority control. Then there is B, which is under joint control.

    “the Fakestanians have gaza which was given…to them by israel to create peace as part of a deal,”
    No, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, which means there was no deal in place- they just withdrew and got nothing in return (unless you count the rockets et al)

    Leaving aside emotions, 00646 is arguing that the only solution is a 2 state solution. The reason why no one else here is jumping at that idea is because they know that will never work- taking Gaza as an example, another Arab enemy state out to destroy Israel would be a disaster. Israel would never be able to let it have its own army- that would be suicidal. If it had its own ports etc, it would just be a pipeline for arms from Iran, as in Syria and Lebanon. (Which is why Israel controls Gaza’s borders, including the sea.) All of Israel would be in reach of even the simplest rockets, not to mention tunnels dug into their neighborhoods. And what about free passage- The Arabs want a contiguous state- the only way to connect Gaza and the West Bank is to take part of central Israel. that would cut off the southern half of Israel from the rest- ie Israel would not be contiguous. How could that possibly work? How could you let a people who have sworn to destroy you free passage on the roads through your country? And don’t kid yourselves that if only they had their own state and right to self-determination they would not have reason to hate and attack us. After all, they hated and attacked us even before 1967 when the Arabs had control over these areas. So the two state solution is not a solution at all. Next.

    The problem is that there is no good solution to the problem. I remember years ago at the start of Oslo, a non-Jewish co-worker was trying to convince me why I should be happy with it- as she put it, you have to do something, things just can’t continue as they are. But here is what she is missing. We don’t have to do something, we can rely on Hashem to work out the geula. See what man’s efforts called the Oslo accords wrought- how many thousands of dead?! While I don’t believe in burying ones head in the sand, or denying our obligation for hishtadlus, there are times we have to recognize that there are issues that are too big for mortals to solve (even if they live in the White house), and we just have to turn to Hashem to solve it. We don’t want to repeat the mistakes of Dor Haflaga who brazenly thought that they had to build support towers to the Heavens so that the world would not be destroyed.

    #1609355

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    00646: All of your points are faulty. These people are not interested in any deal or being part of a productive society. They want one thing, that is to completely own the land called Israel and run it to their own desires. The wouldn’t even want to co-run a state.

    This land is ours, we won it fair and square in a war. Pretty sure that’s hows wars work. You haven’t adressed ANY of my other posts because you can’t back yourself up.

    #1609421

    Avi K
    Participant

    646, they have only themselves and their “leaders” to blame. In 5708 they could have gotten even more but they refused. Arafat ym”s could have gotten 99% but he refused. According to pols the vast majority support terror. Those individuals who are willing to live in peace live very well. I live on a settlement so I see their houses and cars. I see that some of the Arab workers in an area supermarket even have supervisory jobs. In fact, yesterday I saw an Arab woman walking alone in the middle of my settlement (no Jew could do that in any Arab village) . When I asked someone about her I was told that she is a doctor in the clinic.

    #1609425

    000646
    Participant

    Winniethepooh,

    Also, this is not a problem that “happened”. It’s a problem created by the formation of the State and the way things played out. Throwing up your hands and saying “We don’t have to do something, we can rely on Hashem to work out the geula.” doesn’t seem like the right kind of answer to a problem that was created by people doing something. The fact that most religious Jews at the time opposed the idea of creating this situation make that kind of religious answer to the problems it created seem even less tenable.

    #1609495

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    It is a problem that happened. The Palestinians were attacking Jewish immigrants before the state existed as we’ve pointed out several times.

    At that point, their worst crime was illegal immigration. It’s funny how you Neo Nazi liberals probably love illegal immigrants in the US, but when the Jews illegally immigrated to Israel, you say they deserve to be murdered for it.

    The reason you don’t like Winnie’s answer is because you’re an atheist, as was seen on the other thread. This is a forum for religious Jews; please find your way to the exit.

    #1609522

    000646
    Participant

    Neville,

    So your saying that what happened is that Jews were just emigrating with no intention of taking control of the land, the Arabs attacked them for this, and then they decided to declare a state after fighting back?

    That’s not an accurate portrayal of what happened. You should know this.

    Also, I posted a much longer response to Philospher and Avik etc the post that went up was supposed to follow it. Not sure what happened.

    #1609423

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    To the best of my knowledge Egypt is not blockading Gaza from the sea. I never said that Gaza in only bordered by Israel and the ocean. My point was just that Israel could not be blockading Gaza while still keeping it’s own borders with Gaza closed.

    Winniethepooh,

    All of Israel is in reach of Saudi, Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Iranian missiles as well. Do you think Iranians or Syrians just naturally hate Jewish people less? They all are the same. They just know that as sovereign states attacking Israel would be suicidal, They would be bombed to oblivion and their economies would be destroyed hours after they shot a single missile, which is fine. It’s gone so far that in some cases the economic and strategic benefits of being “allied” with Israel are so strong that Jordan and Egypt actually made “peace” (a cold peace but still better then what was).
    The status quo now in the territories leaves people living there quite literally with nothing to lose. You can’t destroy an infrastructure or economy that has never been allowed to develop. Give them something to lose and make it clear that attacking you is just not worth it. It’s kept the other Arab states at bay even though many of them of them are seriously more powerful then a Palestinian state could ever hope to be.

    Until the Jewish movement to take over the land in what is now Israel started gathering steam the Palestinian Arabs in the land treated the Jews a whole lot better then the non Jews in Europe. They actually got along quite well.

    Shopping613,

    If your argument is that since the territories were captured in war they are now owned by the conquering army (which is questionable, to say the least) then as I said before the Palestinians should be made citizens of the conquering state. You may be fine with a single democratic non Jewish state in the place of Israel, however all Zionists almost by definition would never be OK with this, and frankly there are serious benefits to having a Jewish state and it would be a shame to lose it. As to your point about them wanting to kill all Israelis see my points to winniethepooh above

    #1609562

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “So your saying that what happened is that Jews were just emigrating with no intention of taking control of the land, the Arabs attacked them for this, and then they decided to declare a state after fighting back?”

    Yes, because that’s exactly what happened. Liberal revisionist historians claim otherwise and say we “forcefully invaded” the land. The intentions of the immigrants are irrelevant; the point is, the Arabs are the ones that started the aggression.

    Arabs did not like the Jews prior to Zionism. That’s just a flat out myth. Antisemitism is mandated by the Quran; we’ve literally always had problems with them.

    #1609568

    Avi K
    Participant

    646,
    1. Apparently the Hamas is not as fearful as the Iranians (who do not yet have missiles that can reach Israel from their country) and Syrians. Moreover, the fact that the IDF and Shabak have freedom of action in Judea-Samaria prevents many terror attacks.
    2. According to international law a country may annex land taken in a defensive war. In any case, J-S (as well as Jordan) was set aside by the San Remo agreement as part of the Jewish state. There are also precedents for expelling hostile populations (e.g. the Greek-Turkish population transfer of 1923 of the expulsion of the Volksdeutsche from several European countries after WW2)
    3. J-S is ours according to Hashem’s law.

    #1609416

    philosopher
    Participant

    Well, I have nothing to say anymore if YWN moderators edits my posts personally bashing, yes personally bashing, a terrorist supporter. 000646 lies continuously and is sticking up for a people in comment after comment who want to annihilate us. If I can’t say it as is, I will thank you for the platform you gave me till now and bid you goodbye.

    #1609603

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    646 your arguments do not stand.
    1. In case you forgot, we have been attacked by all those countries in the past, even though it was suicidal (read up on the 6 day war a bit). It took Jordan and Egypt a long time to change their tune, and now I suspect they can maintain the cold peace only because there are others who are willing to take up the cause for them. They are not exactly our friends and allies. Meanwhile, there is a very real threat of a war breaking out in the North right now. Another war- seems that the threat of Israel bombing them to oblivion- or the fact that they have done so in the recent past- has not stopped the sovereign states of Lebanon and Syria. Iran does not have to send its missiles at us from Tehran because it uses Hezbollah and now Syria as proxies. That way Israel shoots back at someone else. If there was a Palestinian state, they would be exporting there as well. It’s also a lot easier to get away with shooting short-range homemade missiles and kite bombs than long-range missiles, which can be done from Gaza/the West Bank, which is less likely to risk what the world likes to call a “disproportionate response”.

    2. Even if there was a state, the Palestinians would still be living in a situation where they have nothing to lose. Their leaders are not interested in building infrastructure and creating a vibrant economy. That is a liberal myth. Just look at the facts. Look at Gaza and what they did to what remained behind in Gush Katif after the withdrawal. Look at the funds that the EU etc sends them that goes to building terrorist tunnels, not desperately needed housing or hospitals. There’s a reason that Trump cut off funding to the PA. The corrupt PA will take everything for themselves and leave their people as victims. And they’ll still find a way to blame to Jews for their problems.

    3. Gaza has complete autonomy now, with its own government. But the people are still in bad shape, their only focus is on terrorism. You’ll say it’s because of the blockade, because Israel does not let it control its own borders. But that would inevitably be what would happen to any state in the West bank too, or else Israel would be risking suicide. A state would have to be de-militarized and border-points would have to be monitored to prevent weapons being passed in and terrorists being passed out. Do not kid yourself that these people will realize that normalizing relations will improve their lives and that continuing on their path of terror would be suicidal. They have had nearly 30 years to realize this. And they are still teaching their kids to hate all Israelis and to dream of a Judenrein Palestine from river to sea. Reality is that your plan would not work. Not in the current environment with the Arab leadership as it is.

    4. You started out saying the problem was that Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, took away their right to self-control etc by not making them citizens or giving them independence. Which as others pointed out, they never had- they were always ruled by others. Now you state that the problem started in 1948 with the people doing something – i.e. founding of the state of Israel. Which means that you have a problem, not just with Israel ruling over the Palestinians, but with the fact that they rule over themselves. Sounds like you are for a 1 state solution afterall- and not one that includes Israel. Then you go on to state that the problem actually started much earlier, when Jews started coming back to the area even before 1948. So your problem is with the Jews being in E”Y at all… funny, that’s what the Arabs find problematic as well.

    We are as likely to stop Arab hatred of us by giving them a state in the West Bank as we were able to stop European anti-semitism by assimilation, or by leaving Europe and getting a state of our own. By the way, I remember when people were so worried about the demographics and maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel in the face of a growing Israeli Arab birthrate. Then the iron curtain fell and a million Russians arrived. Even without them all actually being Jewish, it changed the whole equation. Which is why I prefer to leaving the problem solving up to Hashem and not Netanyahu or the Labor Left or Trump or you.

    #1609873

    000646
    Participant

    Philosopher,

    The fact that you can’t argue your points if you can’t resort to personal insults says more about the strength of your arguments then I ever could.

    Avik,

    You said that international law allows for the annexation of land in a defensive war. Even if this is the case the problem is that Israel did not annex the land and make the people citizens because doing so would end Israel as a Jewish state. That’s what we have been discussing.

    Winniethepooh,

    1.) I know very well that all those countries attacked in 1967. Since then they have not. I don’t think the reason they have not attacked and in the case of Jordan and Egypt made “peace” with Israel is because they are fighting through proxies, or actually like Israel. I think it’s because Israel showed them that it’s not worth it to fight them. Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia would like nothing more then send in bombers and or missiles and try to level Tel Aviv, they won’t because they know if they did they would be obliterated. That’s the way it should be. Contrary to what many seem to believe Arabs like being alive as much as anyone. Their leaders show no inclination to suicide.

    2.) The situation right now is one where their leaders really can’t build a vibrant economy. They aren’t recognized as an independent state and can’t even trade internationally without Israel’s permission. Let alone establish relationships with other countries or do any of the other things that are essential for a country to function. I’m not saying their leadership is good. They have terrible leaders, but Israel is putting itself in a position where they are literally handing the Palistinian leadership an “out” and someone to have a legitimate grievance against, and to blame.

    3.) My point with the Arabs being upset about Jews emigrating to the land is just that until they felt that they were going to be ruled over by them the Arabs in the land didn’t really have a problem with their Jewish neighbors. In fact they had way less of a problem with them then the European christians did. This should tell that it’s not that Arabs just hate Jews more then anyone else.

    I actually think that one democratic state for both people Palistinian and Jewish would solve this whole issue. But then there would no longer be a Jewish state in the Middle East and that would be a shame. Its worth it to have a Jewish state. However the current status quo is not sustainable, and I think it gives the Palistinians a legitimate grievance (again NOT A JUSTIFICATION TO HURT A SINGLE INNOCENT ISRAELI)

    Relying on Hashem to bail out the state, especially when it was created against the opinion of the vast majority of religious Jewish leaders of the time doesn’t seem quite right either.

    #1609935

    Doing my best
    Participant

    000646,
    You seem to believe that a one arab state solution is the best, however there will be an easily understandable consequence for Israel if this happens- simply the new citizens now have access to the weapons and facilities of the country formerly known as Israel, and there will be 6.5 million Jews killed in a second holocaust.
    f you want a two state solution, the population of the landmass of Israel just doubled, who’s paying the trillions of dollars for infrastructure?

    #1609958

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. You have not addressed my point about terrorist attacks. We have no idea how many are nipped in the bud because the IDF and Shabak have freedom of movement in J-S. You have also not explained why Hamas is not afraid (it is obvious why Israel has not obliterated Gaza).

    2. The Arabs in J-S never had self-rule. They were first ruled by the Turks and then the British. Under Jordan they were subjects of an absolute Bedouin monarchy. They are a non-people.

    3. On the contrary, as I previously posted Israeli businesses do invest in J-S and hire Arabs for much more than they could get under Abbas’ kleptocracy. There are also joint ventures between Jewish and Arab entrepreneurs. However, the BDS is trying to push them out and the kleptocrats are not telling them to shut up.

    #1609964

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    646-
    1. I think you have forgotten that missiles flying at Israel is unfortunately not a thing of the past. Iran is trying very hard to build its own bases in Syria. Of course the leaders show no inclination to suicide. Why should they, when they have actively encouraged and convinced the masses to do it for them? Yes there is a difference between Jordan today and Jordan of 1967 – but note that the treaty was signed in 1994- many years had to pass, a whole new generation in fact, before it happened. We are discussing the situation on the ground today in the West Bank- incitement, a warped education system that inculcates lies and hatred, etc etc. In this environment, peaceful co-existence is not possible. The point of the slow-pace of the Oslo accords was for things to change so that the 2 peoples could live peacefully together. But that did not happen, and there is much evidence to believe that it won’t happen any time in the near future either.
    2. They can’t build an economy because they don’t want to. Much easier to blame Israel for their problems than to do anything to fix them. It’s very convenient for them to claim victim-hood. All the conditions that you describe did not stop the Zionists from building an economy and the workings of a future state when they were under the British Mandate. Not having official diplomatic ties and trade with other countries does not force them to put every penny they have to building rockets, terror tunnels and paying reward money to terrorists’ families. They have gotten billions over the years from donor foreign countries to build their economy. Look how much they have accomplished.
    3. This is not about who hates us more- Yishmael or Eisav. They both hate us- chazal distinguish the difference in that Eisav hates us no matter where we are- even from afar, while Yishmael gets riled up only when we are close. Being ruled over by the Jews is not a crime or immoral act on their part. The Arabs in E”Y were always ruled over by someone else. Jews have long been ruled over by Arabs. Under Arab rule, non-Moslems were treated like inferior citizens, which is how they got along with Jews living among them and why there was “peaceful” co- existence. They could not accept Jews in any other way, hence the hatred and desire to kill us when circumstances changed.

    I am not relying on Hashem to bail out the state of Israel. I am relying on Hashem to bail us out of golus and bring the geula, which is the only true solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict and antisemitism in general. Yes, the current situation is not sustainable. Your solution is even less practical. When stuck between the sea in front and the enemy’s army in pursuit behind us, we don’t try to come up with defeatist strategies but we turn to Hashem for salvation. I don’t expect Europe or the US to understand this concept, but I would think that a frum Jew in Lakewood would.

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