Pearl Harbor Day

LU: And you don’t think that yidden weren’t killed that day?

I was referring to the terminology “our heroes” not to the concept of hakaras hatov. I could be wrong, but to me “our heroes” implies that we consider ourselves to be part of the same nation as them (as opposed to having a hakaras hatov to someone from a different nation). Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Jews in England or Israel or Australia refer to them as our heroes.

I know what Rav Avigdor Miller Zatsal says about the American Flag. I may be wrong, but I happen not to agree. While hakaras hatov is important, I think that it is important to remember that we are not Americans. And I may be wrong, but I never heard of any other Gedolim saying that we should put out an American flag.

It is brought down that Moshe Rabeinu was punished for referring to himself as a Mitzri. It is important to remember that we are Jews and not Americans, imho.

“Hashem made American soldiers His agents to protect Jews. Hakaros Hatov is a Jewish attribute.”

Maskim.

And when that wicked Supreme Court permitted burning an American flag, and saying you can not make a law against it, it was a desecration of America.

The Supreme Court did not permit anything,It was the Constitution that did.

My flags went up at 6:15 this morning, because it was still dark, the lights remained on until 7:30 when I had a break from work to turn them off. The flags will be proudly flown until 4:45 when I get home from work and the lights will go on early to illuminate the flags after dark as part of the US Flag Code.

I would think that any Jew would refer to any soldier who saved him as his hero. Moreover, American exceptionalism is an empiric fact. America is a nation of nations. In many ways it has been the Am Yisrael of the gentiles (e.g. seeking tikkun olam). IMHO, an America based on traditional American values would be the perfect partner for an Israel based on traditional Jewish values. It is for this reason that I share the view of David Brog and Yoram Hazony, as expressed on-line in “The Nationalist Spirit of 2016: A Conservative Spring?” that the rise of nationalism is good for the Jews.

In any case, I must agree with Joseph (difficult as it is for me to type these words – LOL) regarding hakarat hatov. A book, “At Home in Two Countries: The Past and Future of Dual Citizenship” by Peter J. Spiro, has even been published attesting to the benefits of dual identification (full disclosure: I have only read the review and I unfortunately do not receive a commission for mentioning it).

Joseph – I was assuming that that was your conscious intention. However, it seemed to me (and perhaps I am wrong) that even if that was your conscious intention, your words may have proved otherwise.

My proof was the fact that it is only American Jews who say “our heroes”. It it were only about the Yidden in Europe and not also about identifying as an American, then all Jews would be referring to them as “our heroes”.

It sounds like your response is that you think that British Jews should also say “our heroes”. That is a good response if that is what you really think. But that only works if you do in fact refer to all goyim from all nationalities who have helped Yidden as “our heroes”.

Maybe I’m wrong and maybe you do. Do you?

Avi & Joseph – I am not arguing against the hakaros hatov aspect. I am only nitpicking regarding the perceived over-identification with America. But I may be wrong. In any case, the hakaros hatov is certainly admirable and more important than the exact lashon used.

@LU What do you mean by “our heroes” and why can’t American soldiers especially the ones that liberated us from the holocaust be included in that category?

We should look at Pearl Harbor as an example of Haschagas Pratis.

Many in Japan thought that attacking the US was a bad idea. They could have attacked the Soviet Union, or limited their attack to the British territory (Malaya, Singapore and Australia) while leaving the US alone. It’s not clear the US would have entered World War II had Japan not launched the attack. Most of Europe had been under German control for over 18 months, and the Germans were no longer a serious threat to conquer Britain. One can easily come up with a scenario under which the US stays neutral, and the war ends in 1942 with Germany controlling Europe. Had the US not entered the war, the Nazis would still control all of Europe, perhaps including Russia (with Japan attacking from one side, the US neutral, and Britain agreeing to an armistice – leaving Germany and Japan free to conquer the Soviet Union).

LU, your attitude is deplorable, and, hypocritical. If we are Jews, but not Americans, then give up your citizenship, don’t vote, don’t demand benefits ( I.e. bussing, section 8, Medicaid, beneficial zoning ). It seems we’re Americans if it means getting, but Jews when it comes to giving back. Places like Kiryas Joel are able to live their Jewish life precisely because they exercise their rights as Americans to vote and obtain what they are entitled to. Being Jewish and American are not mutually exclusive

Lesschumras – it’s two different things. Identifying culturally as an American has nothing to do with giving or taking.

I made it very clear that hakaras hatov is important; I was merely cautioning about identifying as an American culturally. As far as I understand, according to the Torah we are supposed to identify only as Jews. Moshe Rabeinu was punished for calling himself a Mitzri even though he received a lot from Mitzrayim (he was even brought up in the palace).

I’m happy to hear your opinion and to debate with you, but I would appreciate it if you could try to express your opinion more respectfully. TIA.

A time for reflection.

I will never forget that day!

The day that will live on in infamy!

My anniversary!😁

Many of the commenters here might be too young to remember the war. I am too, but being something of a history buff, and the fact that my father fought in the U.S. army against the Germans, I have a bit of perspective on this.
People today cannot imagine how unprepared the US was in 1941. And Congress was doing everything in its power to keep the US out of any conflict, be it in Europe (which some derisively called “the Jew war”), or with Japan. Today this sounds ludicrous, but if not for Hashem’s mercies, if the US wouldn’t have immediately rallied around FDR in defense of the country, who knows if Japan couldn’t have seized areas of the western US?
The US made the decision to stand up to tyranny, both in the Pacific and against Germany. FDR believed Albert Einstein’s warnings about Hitler possibly achieving nuclear capability. The government allocated huge resources to developing the atom bomb, which military planners figured on using against Germany. Hashem guided the Allied forces to victory without nuclear weapons, but the war in the Pacific could have dragged on for years. The Japanese army was not some ragtag military force. They were tough, disciplined, and had high quality weapons. And it was nearly impossible to stop the kamikaze attacks on US warships.
So yes, we owe everything to the United States of America, and to the valiant servicemen (and women) who gave their lives so that ydden can live proper yiddishe lives in the US and throughout the world. It’s not too much to ask to fly the American flag on July 4th — not because we identify with all the American mishegassen (which lately have proliferated and deteriorated to a worrying degree), but with a sense of gratitude to all those who sacrificed to free the world from Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan. So, yes, they are heroes for what they did. Even if we still save our principle admiration for the great ones of our nation.