March 25, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #591455
Do you think nowadays Pesach “excuses” (e.g. pasta,potato bread, etc.) ruin the whole etzem of Pesach?March 25, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #866212WolfishMusingsParticipant
Do you think a pruzbul ruins the etzem of shmitas k’safim?
Do you think that hyrdoponics ruins the etzem of shvi’is?
Do you think that shabbos clocks/timers ruin the eztem of shabbos?
Do you think that Bacos ruin the etzem of Kashrus?
Do you think pareve cheesechake ruins the etzem of Shavuous? (OK, that one’s a joke.)
The WolfMarch 25, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #866213anuranParticipant
No and no.
They aren’t “excuses” and they don’t ruin Pesach.March 25, 2010 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #866214blinkyParticipant
absolutely! these foods are good to eat the week before pesach but on pesach i think ppl are meaking a statement that for the one week when were not supposed to eat chametz food they can’t handle it. its the same thing w/ rushing to the pizza stores the second yomtov is over.March 25, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #866215d aMember
I don’t think it ruins the etzem of Pesach, however, I do think people are silly that they can’t go without mac and cheese; pizza; bagels etc. for a week!
And Motzei Yom Tov, FORGET ABOUT IT! People are plain NUTS!!!March 25, 2010 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #866216hodulashemParticipant
i think it takes away a certain special ta’am…March 25, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #866217Mayan_DvashParticipant
Wolf: Actually #3, all strict followers of Rav Moshe listen up: Rav Moshe Feinstein felt that they are mezalzel Shabbos. The quote that I heard from one of his close talmidim is that one can run an entire business on Timers. THat’s why he permitted its use only to control lights.
THAT BEING SAID, the Lord gave us a brain/technology to be used. The gemara mentions in Chulin about various foods that are assur, to which Hashem created a kosher item that tastes just like it. So if we find an honest way “around” things, it is our duty to publicize it.
;March 25, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #866218blinkyParticipant
theres nothing wrong w/ using technology thats more of a necessity on shabbos. but its crazy when ppl make certain foods on pesach a necessity.March 25, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #866219anon for thisParticipant
I am grateful that non-gebrochts products such as pasta, croutons, and various mixes exist, because my oldest daughter has celiac disease. I stock up on these products before and after pesach so that we’ll have enough for the rest of the year (some of these products don’t get used at all during the yom tov).March 25, 2010 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #866220bombmaniacParticipant
the “etzem” of pesach is not “v’inisem es nafshosechem”. you just cant have chametz…i fail to see why having a pizza like product on pesach, or pasta made from eggs and potato starch, or rolls made from whatever…ruins the etzem of pesach…can someone try and explain that? as for shabbos lights…that is completely different. while we hold that you can indeed use them, i can understand the arguments. you are not allowed to turn a light on on shabbos. a timer would ruin the spirit of that. that i can understand. however, nowhere does it say “you may not eat pizza or pasta”. you just cannot eat chametz, and therefore any way of making food similar to its chametzdige counterpart is absolutely acceptable. it used to be people only ate boiled chicken potatos and matzah on pesach…be thankful we now have more of a variety.
while on the subject of supposed excuses…do you sell your chametz on pesach? i rest my case.March 25, 2010 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #866221Ben LeviParticipant
By the way the opinion of Rav Moshe zt’l on shabbos clocks is not “Mipi HaShmua”rather is written in Igros Moshe.March 26, 2010 2:20 am at 2:20 am #866222
Pruzbul is a halacha.
We shouldn’t look for excuses to bypass issurim so yes, they do.
You are right,it should be ma’aras ayin.March 26, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #866223
Do you think pareve cheesechake ruins the etzem of Shavuous? (OK, that one’s a joke.)
Wolf – I NEVER joke about cheesecake…
As to the rest of the statements – Hashem gave us halachos, but He did not forbid us from enjoying life. Torah Judaism, unlike certain other sects and religions, is not meant to have us live an ascetic life. There is absolutely NOTHING, repeat NOTHING wrong with finding a way to do something otherwise forbidden to us, in a kosher and halachically acceptable way. Clearly Hashem gave our chachomim and our scientists the seichel to figure out how to do things that ENHANCE the spirit of Shabbos and yom tov. We cannot watch tv with a timer (uvda d’chol), but we CAN turn on lights so we don’t sit in the dark like the karaites did. I cannot eat bacon, but if I want “bacon” and eggs, (because it really IS delicious, from what I hear, but it is nevertheless assur), I can eat imitation bacos, IF I SO CHOOSE. Do you use pareve “milk” in your coffee after a fleishig meal? The idea is that we do not HAVE to deprive ourselves. Pesach is meant to symbolize freedom. There is no inyan that we have to suffer. For some people who are addicted to certain types of food, going without those foods is extremely hard for them, even if only for a week.
I personally never saw the attraction to pesach spaghetti, or pizza, but I don’t eat that so often when it is NOT Pesach time. I can live without all of these things (just give me chocolate), but some people really feel they cannot. And why should they have to? That is NOT what Pesach is about? Chometz is a very specific aspect of food. If there is no chometz, then it is not assur, and should not be thought of as assur. Because if that is the case, then whoever feels this way should also not eat anything that is leavened with egg whites. The cakes made by that method look as chometzdig as any I have ever had.March 26, 2010 7:25 am at 7:25 am #866224haifagirlParticipant
Several years ago, a few days before Pesach, I went out to eat (didn’t want to ruin all my hard work in the kitchen) and ran into a woman I know. While we were discussing our Pesach plans, she mentioned that she was spending it with her parents, and was a bit disappointed.
“I was really looking forward this year to doing it the [edited] way, really suffering. But my mom can’t live without her [don’t remember the brand] cakes.”
I thought she really had the wrong idea there. If Pesach is about suffering, where is the simchas yom tov?March 26, 2010 10:29 am at 10:29 am #866225aries2756Participant
Please don’t forget about the children. Many children have a very stubborn streak when it comes to food. Some will eat pasta every day without fail and nothing else because that is all they choose to eat. Should we let the kids starve and not eat? All these new concepts allow parents the opportunity of satisfying the family while still teaching them the proper halachas and training them about the JOY of yiddishkeit.
Not every adult is running out to buy these items for themselves because THEY can’t do without them. But easing children into Pesach minhagim will help them enjoy Pesach and not resent it. I am quite sure that there are many adults who will buy these things for their kids but not eat it themselves. I have tried Pesach noodles in the past and found them lacking in taste and any resemblance to chometz ones. So buying these products will not necessarily satisfy the adult pallet yet parents have the option of these items for their children until they can understand the concept of doing without it for a week. My Rav when I was a child, Rabbi Kirzner z”tl used to give his pre-pesach drasha and say “Kinderlach, si doch nor ein voch!” It is only ONE week.
On the other hand, I agree with Oomis, there is nothing wrong with using products that resemble chometz if it isn’t chometz. The halacha is not to eat chometz or even look at it. There is no halacha that says don’t eat anything that looks like chometz. So why judge those who do or companies who have figured out how to do it? Why do we have to hold on to the shtetel? When I was a kid my Mother never used garlic on Pesach. I grew up thinking that garlic was chometzik!!! So should we not avail ourselves of fresh garlic and garlic powder to cook with today? For that matter there was no garlic powder, onion powder, etc. 4 generations ago or ketchup, mustard, vinegar, mayonnaise and many other products we wouldn’t dream of going without. Our grandparents could raise the same question you did regarding our regular staples.March 26, 2010 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #866227
I never said it is assur…and forgive me….I meant to say it takes away the special ta’am of PesachMarch 28, 2010 1:06 am at 1:06 am #866228aries2756Participant
Actually if you want to be “literal” it ADDS tam to Pesach, new tastes every year!!! And again as I have said before why are we looking for things to criticize and complain about that other people do?March 28, 2010 2:06 am at 2:06 am #866229
bombmaniac….the Rambam brings the halacha of selling chametz towards the beginning of hilchos chametz umatzah so it is halachically correct….but here…people are taking away a special ta’am.March 28, 2010 2:10 am at 2:10 am #866230Josh31Participant
Ineoui Nefesh, denying oneself pleasures is only a theme on Yom Kippur.
Pesach on the other hand is a Yom Tov during which we should enjoy ourselves through eating as long as we do not violate the prohibitions of Chametz.
Of course we have to live within our financial means and avoid gluttony, even on Yom Tov.March 28, 2010 3:41 am at 3:41 am #866231
I hear what you are saying mobbuchir, but respectfully disagree. The special taam of Pesach becomes whatever you specifically do l’kovod pesach. my special taam of Pesach is eating the charoses, which i make exactly as my mother O”H did. Her wine nut cake is another “taam” that remains with me, even as I am typing this post. Although I cannot make gefilte fish as good as hers, and never will, because the precise way she made it was lost when she died (she always insisted on making the fish herself as I was growing up, and gave me other assignments to with which to occupy myself while she made the fish), nonetheless, as I cook, the taam of Pesachs Past, comes back to me full force. Whatever minhagim you have in yuor family, will always be the taam of pesach, even if it means eating potato starch spaghetti and ketchup.April 4, 2010 2:36 am at 2:36 am #866232
My Rosh Yeshiva Harav Michoel Mansour shlita always stresses out the point of not looking for ways out….which brought me to this topic.April 4, 2010 5:02 am at 5:02 am #866233
No one is looking for ways OUT. We are looking for ways IN, ways in to enjoying the food we eat on PEsach, that was often very bland and limited. Ways in to NOT feeling like Pesach is synonymous with UGH, matzah AGAIN?????????? Ways in to feeling, WOW, I cannot wait to try this new recipe l’kovod yom tov! People who view these enhancements of the Chag is being “loopholes” might possibly lose sight that Hashem has NEVER asked us to deprive oruselves of the enjoyment of Pesach. he only asks us to refrain from eating MAMESH CHOMETZ. I asked this once before – do you drink coffee at a fleishig simcha, with pareve creamer, or enjoy tofutti or other soy products that may be consumed with meat? DO you ever read an Artscroll Chumash or Talmud? Maybe those things should also be assur in your eyes, because they enable us to do something we might otherwise not be able to do.
We have enough important strictures that we MUST follow in order to be frum. Please don’t negate the things that we have learned MAY be done in an halachically acceptable way. Otherwise don;t bother making cholent for Shabbos, either.April 4, 2010 7:21 am at 7:21 am #866234smartcookieMember
Oomis ur so right.
I don’t eat most of the bought foods on pesach but its only a CHUMRA so not to come to a chashash chametz even(the less we buy the safer we are).
But these foods are 100% kosher for passover and absolutely nothing wrong with eating them.
We don’t refrain from chametz to deprive ourselves. That’s not the reason.April 4, 2010 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #866235
And we don’t refrain from eating chazir to deprive ourselves, either. We don’t eat it because it is assur, and for NO other reason. If we can find a kosher equivalent, we are permitted to eat it.April 4, 2010 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #866236volvieMember
Imitation Pork Chops anyone? (OU certified.)April 4, 2010 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #866237rescue37Participant
Why isn’t the quesion asked; does the minhag of issur of kitniyos ruind pesach? Maybe if kitniyos weren’t assured there wouldnt be such a pudh to use todays technology to come up with these things. There is only so much meat, potatoes and eggs a person can eat.April 4, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #866238smilingMember
rescue37 what are you saying?? whoever holds kitniyos is assur it’s assur! what does that mean if it weren’t assured? it is so there is nothing to talk about! i think Hashem knows what He’s doing and there’s plenty to eat out there Hashem made technology so we could use it!April 4, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #866239smartcookieMember
Rescue- its perfectly fine for those of us not eating kitniyos. So what if we live on meat, eggs, potatoes for 8 days. Nothing will happen.
Its just that when ur not used to something, it seems much harder than it really is.April 12, 2010 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #866241yiddeshekupMember
There are certain things I WONT bring into my home on pesach, not as a chashash of Chometz, rather that it “wont seem like Pesach”if I have it (Pesach Mustard is but one example).
The choices of products are seemingly endless, and anything that brings you simchas yom tov should be bought and enjoyed.
(I too have a child who has an allergy, to corn, so certain products, like Ketchup, i stock up on since it is made with sugar for Pesach).April 12, 2010 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #866242
“i think Hashem knows what He’s doing and there’s plenty to eat out there Hashem made technology so we could use it! “
The first part of your sentence is indisputably correct, though I would point out that it is NOT Hashem who assered Kitniyos, but Ashkenazic Rabbonim (who had valid and compelling reasons for doing so). There IS a great technology today to finding substitutes for chometz that are entirely within the parameters of halacha. So unless one believes that Pesach is NOT a yom tov of freedom, but of ascetism, there is no reasonable logic to avoiding those halachically-approved products, unless it is a personal preference. By that logic, women should not use the approved “shabbos makeup” that is currently being sold everywhere.April 13, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #866244volvieMember
And yet the Chacham Tzvi did NOT “cancel it.” The Chacham Tzvi knew it was NOT “up to them.”April 5, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #866245moishyParticipant
bumpApril 5, 2012 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #866246LogicianParticipant
Now THAT’s a good bump!
Oomis – A major theme of Pesach (discussed by many seforim) is actually separation from Ta’avos, by eating the simple bread. So yes, it could be argued that these products violate the spirit of the law.
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