PHOTO: Orthodox Jewish Man Covers Himself In Plastic Bag On Plane

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  • #945869

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    DY, I see now that it is obvious that the person being Zarul doesn’t help, since the Gemara applies this to the moving wagon. He is moving in the wagon, just as he’s moving in the airplane. Obviously, we have to be Mechalek between Tuma going over him and him going over the Tuma. The first is through Ohel and the second is Magga.

    I have one more Hetter up my sleeve. The airplane itself is a Tzamid Passil, since it is bigger than 40 Saah, so it isn’t Tammei, and it is sealed. The only question I have is that although a Tzamid Passil is allowed to have an opening, that is only a break, but not its actual opening. Since the airplane has openings that it depends on and it gets its compressed air from the engines, perhaps it is not a valid Tzamid Passil.

    #945870

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Rav Schachter quotes that the airplane is Chotztetz because it’s not Mekabel Tumah because the metals they are made out of are lightweight alloys and aren’t any of the 6 metals mentioned in the Torah (which the Gra says are the only ones that can be Mekabel Tumah).

    #945872

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, it is only Chotzetz if it is an Ohel or a Tzamid Passil. It’s not an Ohel so I guess you are considering it a Tzamid Passil. If it works for the airplane it works for the bag.

    We don’t rely on this Hetter when it comes to Tevilas Keilim. Also, Chazal always use the term Barzel, which suggests that it is a rule for metal. If there is a difference it would be regarding aluminum and other earth metals, being that they are a different type of metal than those mentioned in the Torah.

    The question then becomes, what about alloys? If iron is mixed in, to what extent does it matter? Do we go after Ikkar and Tafel, or Rov?

    #945873

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We don’t rely on this Hetter when it comes to Tevilas Keilim.

    I thought of the same thing, but, OTOH, I don’t think we make brachah, at least according to some poskim (I have to check).

    #945874

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: That should be a B’feirush Machlokes Tannaim, and we Pasken against R’ Meir (I believe). I’m pretty sure we hold by Rov, not Ma’amid. Also, planes are made of earth metals like aluminum because they are much lighter. Iron and steel are to heavy to fly efficiently.

    #945875

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    But anyhow, why do you have to come on to this? Once you are agreeing that an airplane is a Tzamid Passil it is anyhow Mafsik because of its size.

    I was just looking over that Tosafos in Eiruvin 31. He quotes the Rashba that holds that an Ohel Zaruk is only a problem when it is being held by a person or Keilim. So now, perhaps according to this, an airplane does not have the problem of Ohel Zaruk!

    The next question is, what about a bus? First of all there might not be a Tefach all over and the Tuma can enter. But that aside, are the tires part of the bus or are the considered separate Keilim and render the bus an Ohel Zaruk. This leads us back to the Sugya of Muchni.

    #945876

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He quotes the Rashba that holds that an Ohel Zaruk is only a problem when it is being held by a person or Keilim.

    As opposed to a beheimah, not as opposed to not being held up.

    #945877

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Not sure why you say that. What special quality does Davar Sheyeish Bo Ruach Chayim have? When it is held by things that are Mekabel Tuma then its being an Ohel doesn’t help. Not being held up should be just as good as being held by any animal or stone. Air is also not Mekabel Tuma.

    #945878

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is rarely pure aluminum. The other stuff that they make the alloy from are there to give it more useable qualities. But it’s not really a question of trying to be Mevatel the iron within it (if it does). It’s rather a question of what item do we have in front of us.

    #945879

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Maybe he has a peanut allergy.

    #945880

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If this photo is 10 years old as has been suggested. It would seem that this is not the Halacha as it was not repeated.

    As suggested this flight was detoured to pass over the cemetary, I am sure this has happend again in the last 10 years yet nobody has worn a plastic bag over their head

    #945881

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    yet nobody has worn a plastic bag over their head

    You must have been on every flight in the last ten years.

    #945882

    Sam2:

    Are you claiming that being machmir on anything is assur?

    zdad:

    Shocking as this may be just because you haven’t seen something done doesn’t mean that there aren’t Poskim who say it should be done. Again, this is the being reported as the shita of R’ Elyashiv or R’ Zilberstein; that doesn’t mean everybody will hold of it.

    #945883

    daniela
    Member

    I don’t think a bus is comparable to this discussion. If the bus drives over a road, or even a dirt road and the like, that means there is no recognizable cemetery and tombs. I recall there is some park in NYC where we have documentation that a Jewish cemetery existed and if I recall correctly, we are also aware that construction did not take place after proper removal and reinterrment in another area. Someone told me Cohanim are not prohibited to walk there. But in this case it’s impossible to rely on any sort of doubts.

    #945884

    Ðash®
    Participant

    Regarding the cemataries near JFK, departing flights veer off long before reaching the cemetaries. and arriving flights generally don’t use the runways in line with the cemetaries. Use of runways 13L and 13R (whose approach is over a number of non-denominational cemetaries) would conflict with LGAs runway 4 and runway 22R (Whose approach is over Montefiore Cemetary) is normally used as runway 4L.

    Mount Zion Cemetary is not in line with LGA’s runway 4 (but it is possible that an approaching plane will fly over it).

    #945885

    Sam2
    Participant

    TKND: Of course not. I said there are very limited cases where Yatza S’charo B’hefsedo because he makes the Torah look like a joke. I’m not saying that this is one of them even. I’m just saying that there’s precedent for such a concept.

    #945886

    Sam2
    Participant

    TKND: Also, doing something that no one else does in a public manner (and nowadays, because of the internet, most weird-looking things are public) is a serious Shaila of Mechze K’yuhara (or, to quote Rav Schachter, Yuhara Mamash).

    #945887

    aryeh111
    Participant

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    ????? ?? ????

    26/10/2001 15:56

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    ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????????? ?? ??”? ???? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???”? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????.

    ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???????, ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????, ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????, ??? ????? ??????? “????? ?? ?????”, ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? “?????” ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????.

    #945888

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Unfortunately, the passenger is a victim of bubble boy disease and is being further subjected to ridicule here.

    #945889

    Anti-Semites will have a field day with this one. Does the threat of Chillul Hashem outweigh halachic considerations?

    #945890

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The first Siman of SHulchan Aruch seems to suggest that not.

    #945891

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It’s actually horrifying what we came to. When we were persecuted we stood through it and didn’t up. Now we are merely being laughed at and we want to buckle?

    #945892

    Sam2:

    “I’m not saying that this is one of them even. I’m just saying that there’s precedent for such a concept.”

    Got it.

    “doing something that no one else does in a public manner (and nowadays, because of the internet, most weird-looking things are public) is a serious Shaila of Mechze K’yuhara”

    Even if one’s Posek holds it’s a chiyuv?

    #945893

    1. genius and holy. extremely respectable.

    2. aluminum could theoretically be hierarchically classified tin.

    #945894

    Sam2
    Participant

    TKND: If one has a legitimate Posek that says it, then I can’t question him. I can, however, question whether or not said Posek has a Din of Mara D’asra where this person is and therefore shouldn’t be followed because of making Halachah look like a joke.

    #945895

    daniela
    Member

    Making Halachah look like a joke or like a yoke?

    I have not been hired to eliminate foolish behaviour in public among those who are (or claim to be) observant Jews, and cause people to make a mockery of Judaism and Torah, but actually I would support that. It might not be a bad idea if some people were in charge of that: a good-manners and common-sense police. Say, they could start with silencing those on the trucks who chant Na Na. Ohhh but that’s not politically correct, we must not hurt the delicate sensitivity of our Baalei Teshuva brothers. Wait, is the man in the picture not a Baal Teshuva as well? See, as I said all along. Only a certain (very specific) sort of people are suitable targets for nastiness, everyone else can do whatever they see fit and no one objects.

    PS I wish some of the effort expended in attempting to ridicule the person in the photo had been diverted towards real and serious problems such as the burka ladies.

    #945896

    Sam2:

    Should one ignore the shita of his Posek wherever he isn’t the Mora D’asra?

    HaLeiVi:

    “It’s actually horrifying what we came to. When we were persecuted we stood through it and didn’t up. Now we are merely being laughed at and we want to buckle?”

    +1

    #945897

    Sam2
    Participant

    TKND: It might be different nowadays because the whole world has been mixed up and a Mara D’asra might no longer exist as a concept, but yes. It is Yuhara to be Machmir in an ostentatious public way against Minhag/P’sak Hamakom and it is Assur to be Meikel in public against Minhag/P’sak Hamakom.

    #945898

    So then what’s the point of having a Posek? Just always do what everyone else around you is doing.

    #945899

    Leyzer
    Participant

    Imanonov said:

    As such this person is a Tzaddik for putting himself in such an embarrassing situation for the sake of Halocho. At the same time it is definitely not a Chilul HaShem, because following Halocho is never a Chilul, but rather a Kiddush, HaShem. If you feel uncomfortable with that, you are suffering from a Golus mentality and need to improve your hashkofos (and knowledge of Halocho).

    I respond:

    Mesillas Yeshorim writes that one must not observe a Midas Chasidus if the Hamon Am will mock him. If there are shitos that mean the plastic big is unnecessary, it would appear that doing so is not really a Halacha but a Midas Chasidus, and would therefore be discouraged.

    A Dayan in London wrote a very detailed comprehensive Teshuvah on the subject about 8-10 yrs ago, including all the points raised abvoe by various commenters, and concluded that the plastic bag would be a Chumrah but not required Al Pi Halacha. I believe the Teshuvah was printed in Techumin/ Kol Hatorah or some similar journal. If anyone wants I could look for a copy.

    #945900

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    if the Hamon Am will mock him.

    Define hamon am. The Gothamist? The leitzonim on the CR?

    There’s also a fine line between considering being machmir a midas chassidus or simply not employing a kula.

    #945901

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It was me. I did it to start discussion on the issues of tumah and tahara, to prepare us for mashiach/the medina (??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???).

    I am glad my actions brought forth such wondrous fruit.

    #945902

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just saw a new account of this. It says it was Rav Yosef Brook, not Rav Elyshiv who poskend this

    #945903

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, ZD, Rav Brook just said that the fellow involved (a baal teshuvah IAF veteran) asked a posek (according to the accounts I saw).

    #945904

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If there are shitos that mean the plastic big is unnecessary, it would appear that doing so is not really a Halacha but a Midas Chasidus, and would therefore be discouraged.

    WADR, this is completely untrue. Just because there is a valid Machlokes doesn’t make the “Machmir” side Middas Chassidus. It means that even B’dieved, one side holds it is Assur.

    The prototypical example of this is the Machlokes Bais Hillel & Bais Shammai regarding Tzaras Ervah. Bais Hillel actually held the children of such a union were real Mamzairim, not “Middas Chassidus” Mamzairim.

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