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I am a little irate, at the fact of these “simcha sites” that post pics of the couples without their permission. It is one hundred present gezel to take pics of the choson and kallah and put them up. I was at a simcha recently where the families requested that no pictures be taken and put on on social media. There were even placards on the tables, informing guests NOT to do so!! Well wouldn’t you , know it. Someone sent a picture of the Chosson and Kallah anyway. I really feel these sites serve no purpose. No one should have the right to post pics up, especially WITHOUT permission. It is one hundred percent poor geneviah. Even siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc… should not do so. Why does the whole entire world have to see those pictures. Safety wise, it is not so smart. Thieves can see who got married and know the family won’t be home all week do to Sheva Brochos. It is really sad. Not to mention untzinus. I know most of these couple, who probably do not even have internet, would greatly object to their pictures being uploaded to a Simcha site.
If the chosson and kallah are never seen without a “please don’t post pictures online” sign in the background, the pictures won’t go up.
Agree with you TOTALLY.
SO UNTZNIUS. That’s the current world we live in – “chutzpa yasge”. Everything publicized, publicized, broadcast for the world at large to know, so in-your-face. Utterly disgusting behavior.
Yidden ought to have an innate sense of tznius, privacy. That’s one of our three defining character traits.
And all the more so when posting pictures of women, girls. Are they c”v to become “objects” for ogling?!? How wrong!!!
I definitely do not disagree at all
however I do wonder about this “It is one hundred present gezel to take pics of the choson and kallah and put them up.” “It is one hundred percent poor geneviah.”
what is being stolen?
Privacy and the rights to their own pictures.
I do not think it’s true that people have the right to their own pictures. A picture of yourself isn’t you. I have the right to take a picture of what I see. If what I see is you, I can take a picture.
It’s hard to argue privacy when there over 500 guests
Reb yid
Where do you gt the idea that you own a picture I take of you?
I don’t think it’s gezel. I think some of what they put up violates tznius, and therefore it’s also loshon hora. When it’s unwanted, it’s embarrassing to the chosson/kallah and families, and violates halbonas ponim.
I think being on a public website accessible to all does violate privacy.
I think it’s despicable.
I just don’t think it’s gezel.
The geni is already out of the bottle- you cant put it back in.
Perhaps you can confiscate each persons cell phone and camera when they walk in. And hire some sort of CIA-like service to spy out for hidden cameras. Have them sign a legal contract agreeing not to take photos- and hire a team of lawyers to prosecute anyone who does.
Might increase cost of wedding.
I do not think it’s true that people have the right to their own pictures. A picture of yourself isn’t you. I have the right to take a picture of what I see. If what I see is you, I can take a picture.
There is no right to take a photo in a private venue.
It’s hard to argue privacy when there over 500 guests
Most concerts and sports events are also private venues regardless of the number in attendance.
Sam2, I hope you are kidding
I have the right to refuse to be photographed in my own house.
As I wrote before, it’s not becoming of a Jew.
I can’t think of a definite, written, exlpicit issur in Shulchan Aruch, (not that I know how to operate one), at best it’s being a naval birshus Hatorah.
mazal77
“As a guest, if you are requested not to do certain things, it is only proper etiquette.”
I dont think anybody including newbee is arguing on that point. If asked by baalei simcha not to do something, people just shouldn tdo it, period. Gezel or not.
I think newbee means, that there is no way to avoid it, about which of course he is right, unfortunately our simchas are big and frankly you cant expect 500 people to all be mentchen. Again I’m not saying it isn’t wrong.
However, it isn’t Gezel.
That said
mazal77: I cannot use a photograph of you for financial gain without your permission. I can take it, though.
This gets to a much deeper issue, though. That being, what are the Halachic rights to privacy in the public sphere? And is a wedding a public sphere? I don’t have answers to these off the top of my head. Lich’ora, there is no right to privacy in public. That being said, Lashon Hara is always an issue. Of course, it’s hard to see what Lashon Hara there is in someone getting married. And if it’s considered not normal to not want people to know you got married (I said if, I have no idea if it is), I don’t think someone has a right to claim they feel uncomfortable by it. I don’t know what is considered normal by posting a wedding picture either.
You are right
Weddings are sort of public, but many have separate seating for most of the wedding. So publicizing couple pictures that anyone can see — including men, without a mechitza — is just plain wrong.
And these sites publish Vort photos as wall, which have smaller crowds and are often held at home. That’s definitely a more private affair.
Sam, when I refer to loshon hora, I mean publicizing pictures in which the chosson/kallah do not appear in a tziusdik’e manner.
I’m not sure if you were referring to my comment, but either way, figured I’d clarify.
Newbee, what do you mean with your comment?
Surely you don’t mean that now that it’s widespread, it’s okay – that doesn’t make sense. If halachic dinners became the norm, would that make them okay? 😉
If you mean that the chosson/kallah shouldn’t pose in a way they’d be uncomfortable being posted online, then yes, but they shouldn’t be doing that anyway.
If you mean that they shouldn’t put effort into controlling the release of pictures online, I still disagree. I know people who did that successfully, although, perhaps that’s easier in my circles, where online pictures of simchas aren’t really the norm.
I was once at an event and I was photographed with my voice and it was put into a for-profit movie, I complained to a lawyer because I signed no released and got no compensation and I was told tough, I do not own the rights to my own image and voice
Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein discusses almost exactly this shayla in his newest sefer, Chashukei Chemed-Nedarim. The shayla presented was a little different. A wedding photographer put up a pic of a chosson whose wedding he had photographed in his shop as an example of his work. The chosson felt embarrassed and wanted the pic taken down.
Much of what is discussed is ownership of pix at events like weddings. Of course the photographer may have a stronger contractual baalus on pix than a random dude with a smartphone. RYZ does discuss in general terms as well, not just the professional.
DY: While I’ll agree with that, why are they in any untznius picture in the first place? If it’s not okay to be photographed, it’s not okay to be seen.
I totally agree.
“If halachic dinners became the norm, would that make them okay? ;)”
Haha, oy back to that again.
I was simply saying that its going to be very hard/impossible to enforce. The biggest current issue of this age in my opinion is damaging others through social media. People have ended their own lives because of this.
However, I dont think the couple has the halachic or moral right to demand that guests dont take photos of other guests at the wedding. There is a grey area in secular law regarding who owns wedding photos when it comes to professionals, but at least in secular law a non-professional guest at a wedding would certainly own the photo he took and can share it since there is no right-to-privacy at a wedding. But its certainly wrong to share it if the couple requests not to.
“I dont think the couple has the halachic or moral right to demand that guests dont take photos of other guests at the wedding”
They probably don’t have the halachic right, but I do think they have a moral right. (see what I did there). And i am almost certain it isnt gezeilah or geneiva
I think it is weird to make a big deal out of this, but hey if they don’t want it just dont do it. period
I wonder if the halachos of “hezek ri’ya” can somehow be applied to unauthorized photos being taken of people and then uploaded to the internet. I guess we need the choshen mishpat experts to weight on.
Sam: I believe there’s a difference in Tznius for a woman to be seen at one’s own event, mainly invited guests for a limited time versus posting a photo online for a much broader audience for posterity. That’s where “Hinei Be’Ohel” comes into play.
Also, at an event one can’t “ogle” without looking weird and the subject is likely “a moving target” whereas online people can stare for as long as they wish without any oversight.
It’s unfortunately also possible to edit photos or add critical comments and forward it. Hopefully not the norm but still a possibility and reason one might not want her photo out there.
And it can be argued by say someone of the Ger Chasidus that because of Tznius couples shouldn’t be seen together at all, which would preclude their own wedding, but perhaps not in photos afterwards.
There is no way to prevent unauthorized photos taken of people put on the interet.
What is someone is at the Kotel and takes a picture of themselves and there are people in backround. ANd what if the people in the backround are doing something untzniut. It is not the photographer concern or responsibility
What is the thrill for someone to take a picture of a simcha and post it online especially when asked by the baalei simcha not to? what does one gain from it except for some warped sense of empowerment? what thrill does one get from seeing person a eating kugel at a simcha whether that picture is online or the centerfold of the yated.
APY: they might get rewarded financially, besides for feeling like a “professional photographer” without going through the training…
“what if the people in the backround are doing something untzniut.”
One could ask, why the photographer is in attendance at such a place. but I wont.
APY
I said at the Kotel,
But even what about a Park and you are just taking pictures of your kids at the park, Sometimes untzniut things go on at a park
ZD: photos of your kids or someone else’s?
Someone else, not your immediate family member, Could be adults and not kids
They are in the backround.
Go to Central park or Prospect park for example lots of people go there.
It would seem common sense not to post pictures on line that had nontzniyus stuff in the background. Just like you wouldn’t post something that was otherwise stomach churning.
“Go to Central park or Prospect park for example lots of people go there.”
It is precisely because of this, that I don’t go to these places. Or take my sons.
I do a fair amount of photography in public, including city parks and other similar venues. My shots tend to be more nature/landscape shots, so, for me, unless the person in the pic is particularly compelling for some reason, I’d prefer they not be there anyway (and will wait until they leave to take the pic).
However, that does not stop me from photographing people if I can’t avoid it. If I’m in Times Square (which is where I work) and I’m shooting, there is simply no way to avoid people… and so I don’t even bother. If you’re in my shot there, well… tough luck. If you’re in a public place, you have no expectation of privacy and, you’re fair game (although there are commercial restrictions on the usage of such photos).
As for the OP, I’m of two minds. I believe that, if the host of an event specifically asks for no photos, it’s a bit tactless and tacky to then go ahead and take photos and post them publicly. I think the OP went overboard to call it “100% gezel” since, as others have pointed out, nothing is being stolen. It’s tactless and insensitive, but that’s about it.
On the other hand, there are certain social norms and expectations that hosts and guests should adhere to. For example, you would not go to a wedding dressed in a bumblebee costume, since that’s outside the social norms. Likewise, the bride and groom can request that guests show up in bumblebee costumes, but the guests, I feel, would be free to disobey since such a request is, also, outside the social norms of the time/place.
In our days of ubiquitous camera phones and social media, I have to wonder if guests taking pictures is something that has become such a normal thing to do that a host requesting otherwise would fall out of the social norms. You wouldn’t think of inviting guests and asking them to eat only using their left hands or only drinking water (even if other things are served), right?
So, I’m torn between the two. I see both sides.
Interestingly, I photograph a carnival given for special needs children every year (although I didn’t do it this past year because I am in mourning). I simply go around and photograph the kids and adults having a good time at the event. Most people are fine with having their kids photographed at this event, but every now and again, I’ll come up against one who asks me not to do so.
Truthfully, I’m probably not under any actual obligation to accommodate them. Even though it’s a private event, it’s still public (in the sense that the people there have no reasonable expectation of privacy) and I am invited by the organizers to document the event. Nonetheless, I try to accommodate such requests within reason. In other words, I won’t take a shot of their kid alone or in a small group, but I’m not going to skip a crowd shot just because the kid is in it.
The Wolf
Whose psak is that it is 100% pure genaivah? In this day and age, I think people have to have the expectation that pictures taken can end up anywhere, and I don’t know how you can control it other than relying on the integrity of the picture taker to honor your wishes. If people are properly dressed, what exactly the tznius issue involved?
People can have all sorts of expectations. The torahs is “mah tovu Ohalecha Yackov”. Posting ones entire life online smacks of the opposite. Posting other people online is just worse. Just my opinion. so, if you invite me to your simcha, you can be sure you wont find photos of yourself, or any of your invited guests, online.
there is nothing wrong with posting simcha pictures online it isnt rude or smacks of haughtiness. People like to see simcha pictures
However that being said I do have certain relatives that I dont think would appreciate it so I wont post those people photos. I know who they are and they dont have to ask me not to do it. I just wont and wont let anyone else in my immediate family do it either with those people
Wolf (and others), there’s a big distinction to be made between someone showing up in the background of a picture, and a picture where the subject in question is the focus of the picture, especially when named in the caption.
Flatbusher: improper/inappropriate interaction between chosson and kallah.
Zahavasdad, we can debate whether there’s a lack of tznius involved, but you’ve got the main point correctly, which is respecting the wishes (even if unspoken) of the ba’alei simchah.
Whatever you might think of me personally, I am well aware not everyone thinks the same way I do and when I am with those people I try to respect their wishes even if I strongly disgree with them
Mammele: No offense, but if people are ogling women online they’re not doing it by looking at wedding pictures.
Wolf (and others), there’s a big distinction to be made between someone showing up in the background of a picture, and a picture where the subject in question is the focus of the picture, especially when named in the caption.
I agree, there is a distinction and, I believe, in my post, I covered both sides of that distinction (shooting in public in a place like Times Square vs. the children’s carnival I cover).
The Wolf
Two more points I wanted to make.
One is that Hezek Re’iyah has nothing to do with this. As opposed to the common misunderstanding of the term, it is a Machlokes Rishonim and refers either to Ayin Hara, or to someone feeling uncomfortable and self conscious since he is being watched. Well, on second thought, perhaps there is some connection. But only to Ayin Hara, possibly – the second approach is only b’Shaas Maiseh.
Also, the lack of Tznius is applicable whether or not the Chosson and Kallah are behaving inappropriately. As others have noted, that which they are at the event of their own wedding, in the presence of their guests, is entirely appropriate, and if there are those in attendance who abuse their Shemiras Einayim then it is not (necessarily) the fault of the Chosson and Kallah. Whereas posting a picture for any and all to see – including those who have no connection to the Simchah – is inviting the voyeur in many. Especially considering that there does not seem to be any compelling reason to do so.
Mobico. So, if I followed you around all day and generally creeped you out, thats not good. But if I discreetly (ok, even not discreetly, but against your wishes) took photos of you and posted them online for all to see, you could care less? why?
Admittedly, I have know nothing about Hezek Re’iyah, but where do you get the idea that it is related to “self concious”? Why do you believe that nobody is not self concious about their photos posted online for all the world to see?
Flatbusher- In this day and age, I think people have to have the expectation that pictures taken can end up anywhere, and I don’t know how you can control it other than relying on the integrity of the picture taker to honor your wishes.
I think in a frum setting people really don’t have to expect this. Maybe on the street i agree but by a frum simcha i disagree. And if you’ll say “but there are people that’ll do it”
Wolf- In our days of ubiquitous camera phones and social media, I have to wonder if guests taking pictures is something that has become such a normal thing to do that a host requesting otherwise would fall out of the social norms.
I dont know the rules of what makes something normal. Point is, there are so many simchas that ive been to that arent smartphone simchas, where most people in attendance are holding on to their values. As for the handful of people that do have smartphones there, they have the decency not to publicize pics. So what is the norm?
(BTW What happens if by half of orthodox jews this isn’t the common practice, do i go by where i am or what the general populace does?)
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