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  • #1072320
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “Ubiquitin: how do you define “faltche frumkeit”, anything further to the right than your hashkafos? Or maybe only if it’s a certain degree further to the right?”

    Neither! It is when it is based on silliness. And more so when it is done as a way to show how frum you are. None of these publishers really beleive their is something wrong with pictures of women, it is just an act to show how “frum” they are. That is what I call Faltche

    #1072321
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Religious tolerance has nothing to do with copyright infringement.

    #1072322
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    An even bigger Chilul Hashem is trolling a person on the internet

    #1072323

    Ubiquitin, I honestly can’t see any other reason for you to ascribe those negative motivations other that intolerance. My personal opinion on pictures (and that of my rebbeim) is probably pretty close to yours, but I have no doubt that there are people who are against it for purely sincere reasons (although I don’t know about the motivations of any particular publication).

    Rebyidd, as best as I can tell, neither did that picture.

    ZD, you really shouldn’t be calling anything you don’t like a chillul Hashem. It cheapens the term.

    #1072324
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I didnt call it a Chilul Hashem because I didnt like it, I called it because I saw what other people thought of it.

    One should always try to protray Yiddishkeit in a positive light that people will say, Look at those Yidden, they are truly a holy people.

    That did not happen in this story and the total opposite occured.

    #1072325
    Trust 789
    Member

    ubiquitin: When I see pictures of women in frum newspapers, I cringe. Ditto, frum websites. It isn’t “faltche frumkeit”.

    I don’t cringe for myself, since I’m a woman.

    I agree with DY. It is religious intolerance.

    #1072326
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    How many people on the right have “Religious tolerance” for Orthodox Rebbein more to the left

    How many times here have I seen disparging remarks made about Rav Kook, Rav Yosef Ber Solevichik , Rav Stav or Rav Druckman

    #1072327

    ZD, by that standard, milah is a chillul Hashem.

    #1072328
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I do not wish to debate Milah issue, but one needs to seperate the issue of Bris Milah from Meziah B’Peh.

    Nobody says you cant avoid a Bris, there are many who say you dont need Metizah B’Peh and even the same Mohels will do the Bris either way depending on the parents wishes.

    #1072329

    I am referring to milah, not specifically to metzitzah b’peh.

    #1072330
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The backlash against Milah is not the same, its mostly a few crazies

    One does need to seperate between constructive critism and spiteful critism out of hate. Not all critism aimed at charedi communities is spiteful and hateful. Some is constructive. Its not that hard to figure out which is which

    #1072331
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD.

    “An even bigger Chilul Hashem is trolling a person on the internet”

    It did not take long at all for you to prove the point I was making, that you have no idea what a chillul hashem is.

    #1072332
    flatbusher
    Participant

    The word is criticism, ZD

    #1072333
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sometimes people just need to look in the mirror and ask themselves do I give off a positive view of the torah lifestyle or do people look at me and say , See that jew, He is a disgrace because he doesnt know how to act properly

    #1072334

    You’re defining crazy based on what you personally disagree with. I have no idea which is more common, but I can assure you that the anti milah lobby has made a lot of noise.

    #1072335
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    It is certainly a chillul Hashem to bad mouth those who are makpid on Metzizah b’peh. Regardless if you have decided that you do not want to be makpid, it is definitely a legitimate hakpadah.

    But there are those above who would insist that doing metzizah b’peh is a chillul Hashem because some don’t like it.

    #1072336
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I doubt ZD has even ever seen Hamevaser, nor would he even know where to get it.

    They are printing their magazine for a specific audience which prefers that there are no women in the picture and want pictures edited for that.

    Vos art dir? No one is insisting you look at it, and they do not tout themselves as the paper of record.

    It is clearly not a chillul Hashem. The commenters formenting hate against other yidden (whole scads of them) are definitely mechallelei hashem. Bfarhesiah. L”A.

    #1072337
    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: There are many readers who do not want to see any photos of women. And that is for shmiras einayim purposes. You may think it is overboard but they earnestly hold that it is the most proper form of having shmiras einayim.

    #1072338
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY, there is a huge difference between milah and this issue.

    Milah is set out in the Torah. Following what the Torah says is definitely NOT a chillul Hashem. Not showing pictures of women who are dressed modestly is NOT in the Torah. It’s a chumrah adopted by people to try and show that they’re more machmir than the next person. That can be a chillul Hashem. If they didn’t want to show women, then they shouldn’t have printed any picture at all. Editing someone else’s picture is wrong, and created a chillul Hashem.

    BTW, I never did get a clear answer about histaklut for women. Is a woman allowed to stare at a picture of a man she finds attractive? If not, then why are the papers printing pictures of men? DY, you wrote “if it would cause a problem, it would be assur”. Does that mean you believe there’s no issur?

    #1072339

    I agree that milah is meikar hadin and this is a chumra. I’ve even said that this is not a chumra I’m makpid on (part of it is not even a chumra for the reader; it’s editorial policy not to have to keep deciding who is or isn’t attractive or dressed properly).

    Where we disagree is on how to view someone else’s chumra or policy. I think it is small minded and insecure to view someone else’s chumra as an attempt to show superiority. Why can’t you accept that people can be strict for sincere reasons?

    As to your other point, a man’s yetzer hora manifests itself differently than a woman’s.

    And I never said I believe there’s an issur here, just a sincere geder to avoid arayos.

    This geder, BTW, I guess (haven’t actually spoken to anyone who follows the policy of not looking at pictures), is not really out of fear that someone will see a tiny picture of a properly dressed woman and have hirhurim, it’s to create a mindset not to look at females in order to avoid other situations which are problematic.

    What’s not so important for me, though, is to perfectly agree with or even understand why a different group chooses a chumra or policy. It is important to me though, to have an ayin tova, be tolerant, and believe that the motive is sincere.

    #1072340
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    In the course of this conversation their is something that is being overlooked.

    If it is halacha, minhag or even a legitimate chumra. I dont think we should care about what Others think. This goes for milah, metzitza, and not printing pictures of women. (of course there is a (relevant) side discussion whether some of these are legitamte hakpadahs However this shouldnt detract from the main issue at hand)

    Hamevaser never prints pictures of women, Haaretz didnt have a story last month that there were no women. That isnt the issue. I dont know if Z-Dad agrees, but it should go without saying that any paper has every right to come out with any fardreita chumra they want they can avoid pictures of women, reshaim, all goyim, all animals, treif animals, fruits or apples

    (BTW Trust 789, When I see pictures of apples in frum newspapers, I cringe. Ditto, frum websites. It isn’t “faltche frumkeit”. I don’t cringe for myself, since I love apples).

    That is not what happened in this instance. They could have easily avoided pictures of women. Ami, Mishpacha Yated and Hamodia all managed to report on the story without pictures of women and without raising the world’s ire. The literal editing women out of history is what the issue at hand is

    #1072341
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I would have had no problem if they didnt print ANY Picture. Its only when they doctored a picture especially a well known picture

    #1072342

    something that is being overlooked

    No, it’s not overlooked, this is how it started.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/firestorm-after-%e2%80%98der-zeitung%e2%80%99-deletes-hillary-clinton-from-iconic-photo/page/5#post-553469

    The literal editing women out of history is what the issue at hand is

    If they literally edited them out of history, it’s l’mafreia not a falsehood.

    You tried the falsehood argument before. It’s wrong. So you tried the faltche frumkeit argument, which was also wrong. So now you’re going back to the falsehood argument, but it’s still wrong.

    They edited out women from a picture because they have a policy not to print pictures of women. They should have either not published it, or at the least, possibly, had a caption reading “edited as per editorial policy not to publish pictures of females”, to avoid the predictable criticism. They didn’t. That’s all.

    #1072343
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY, I agree with most of your last paragraph. While I disagree with the policy of the newspaper, it’s still a private business with the right to print any picture it chooses. I don’t think the caption would be a good idea, as it isn’t their picture to edit. They should have just refrained from publishing the picture at all.

    #1072344
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY, of course thats how it started but the conversation has shifted to side issues that are completely irrelevant to the main issue, case in point: metzitza.

    “You tried the falsehood argument before. It’s wrong.”

    Um no, editing a picture to depict events that they didnt happen is false. You can argue that tznius trumps falsehood but it is sheker.

    “So you tried the faltche frumkeit argument, which was also wrong. “

    This wasn’t an argument on the main issue. (See told you, the main issue got overlooked) This is regarding the side issue of Not printing pictures of women at all. Which though based on faltche frumkeit (granted a notion I cannot prove, it is purely based on persoinal experience) is without question their right, and we shouldn’t care what anybody says, bizarre as the policy end up being (Times of Israel has pictures from children’s books depicting “families” in the park led by 2 men and weddings with only men under the chupa.)

    See how the the two issues have become conflated, Since falche frumkeit doesnt address the main issue which is EDITING pictures.

    “They edited out women from a picture because they have a policy not to print pictures of women. They should have either not published it, or at the least, possibly, had a caption reading “edited as per editorial policy not to publish pictures of females”, to avoid the predictable criticism. They didn’t. That’s all.”

    Completely agreed! This is the main issue. and as I said elsewhere we fundamentally agree. Our only discussion is are they wrong for not doing what you agree they should have done. (And the related point if cutting people out of pictures is sheker.)

    Side question: There are some cases of Gedolim pictures without Yarmulkas eg for passport or with wives/dauthers not dressed tznius by today’s standards. OCcasionaly these pictures are edited to make them more in line with the current zeitgeist.

    Is this falsheood?

    Note: I am not asking whether it is right. YUou can maintain that it is proper to do since it’s disrespectful.

    I am only asking if an edited picture is Emes or Sheker?

    #1072345

    I need a nap after reading all these posts.

    #1072346
    streetgreek
    Member

    ubiquitin: It’s no more sheker than when your wedding photographer edits out a cold sore on someone’s face or edits out a stranger who mistakenly walked into the background just before he shot the photo. Or when he adds in the bride’s brother who missed being in the shot. And since they pay the newswire for use of the photo, if the copyright holder has no objection to it being edited (something no one here claims to factually know) then neither should anyone here.

    #1072347
    Trust 789
    Member

    BTW Trust 789, When I see pictures of apples in frum newspapers, I cringe. Ditto, frum websites. It isn’t “faltche frumkeit”. I don’t cringe for myself, since I love apples)

    Really? And why might that be?

    #1072348

    DaMoshe,

    I don’t think the caption would be a good idea, as it isn’t their picture to edit.

    We haven’t seen any legitimate claims of illegality, have we? Do you similarly have a problem with the parody that was published of only the female world leaders? (It was very funny, actually.)

    In context, I don’t think this was more misleading than that, and might not even have been questioned had they printed a disclaimer.

    They may still have received criticism for the policy, so I’m not sure just refraining from printing it wouldn’t have been better. They are trying to sell papers, though.

    Ubiquitin, that’s not called being overlooked, there’s just not much more to add. As is the derech in the CR, the discussion digressed.

    Completely agreed! This is the main issue.

    No it isn’t.

    (And the related point if cutting people out of pictures is sheker.)

    That is (one of) the main issue(s).

    There are some cases of Gedolim pictures without Yarmulkas eg for passport or with wives/dauthers not dressed tznius by today’s standards. OCcasionaly these pictures are edited to make them more in line with the current zeitgeist.

    Is this falsheood?

    It depends on the context (which is my point here as well).

    If the representation will be that it is assur to take off your yarmulka for a passport photo, then yes, it would be a falsehood. If it’s airbrushed in out of respect, but no such point is being made, then no. If the context that it was a passport picture was not mentioned, and a representation was made that such and such gadol didn’t regularly wear a yarmulka, then it would actually be a falsehood to publish it as is.

    I’ll ask you a question as well: it has become common practice to photoshop pictures of the chosson and kallah into family pictures taken before the chuppah. This saves the guests (and everyone, really) time. Without having to balance sheker/tircha d’tzibbura, would you call this sheker? How about digitally removing a piece of dust from the chosson’s hat?

    My answer is no, because, in context, nothing is being misrepresented, unless someone is trying to represent (for example) that the chosson and kallah saw each other before the badek’n, or the hat manufacturer is trying to represent his hat as being dust retardant (can I use that word?).

    Editing a picture is not falsehood per se. It depends on whether the idea being represented is false. There was no representation of the three female world leaders being absent or not existing, so there was no falsehood.

    #1072349
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    A non-frum colleague of mine was hacking about this issue. Shame to see the same response here…

    To those who have been calling it a chillul Hashem: If that’s what you’re really worried about then believe me, this thread is more of a chillul Hashem…

    #1072350
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I mostly agree with your last post. My only point of contention is regarding “Editing a picture is not falsehood per se. It depends on whether the idea being represented is false.” It depends on what the idea being represented is. In this case the idea being represented is a world unity rally led by world leaders. Pictures in a newspaper are often used to illustrate a story. (After all a picture is worth a thousand words. Many people glance at the picture and skip the article. A headline serves the same purpose. Thus even if the story mentions Merkel being there if the Picture is edited it still conveys a dishonest message. There is a frum website that often has dishonest headlines to pieces for example (not an actual example but they have done very similar headlines) They’ll have a headline Obama says “Attackers are justified” Then in the course of the article they say the full quote “anybody who says the ATTACKERS ARE JUSTIFIED is a terrible person” Obviously this admitedly extreme case would be falsehood. It isnt enough that the story is true. The headline, which to a certain extent summarizes the story has to convey truth as well.

    The wedding question is even less of a sheker than the others because the pictures arent meant to document what occured. IT is more of a souviner or memento. Nobody looks at wedding pictures and says “Remember how we all stood with our backs to a backdrop” If a person edited in some Rosh Yeshiva to show how chashuv he is that so and so attended then it would be sheker, but I think we agree on this that it is all about context.

    Regarding edited Gedolim pictures, that is trickier because it depends on the point of the book, Obviously Artscroll “biographies” serve a different purpose than biographies as generally percieved, and arent meant to give an exact history. In which case the context is different regarding editing in yarmulka (you didnt address Tznius) though In a general biography it would be dishonest to edit pictures.

    So the discussion is really over what is the context that the picture appeared in the paper. To me it seems it is meant to depict a historical event as it occurred and as further described in the accompanying article.

    #1072351
    oomis
    Participant

    Regarding wedding photos, it is not the same thing. The Baal Simcha PAYS the photographer to represent the best view of the family. He expects and WANTS the pictures to be edited, airbrushed, and digitally corrected. Personally, I am against the practice of digitally ALTERING a family pic to include someone who was never there. It is not the emes. But I understand the POV of those who do this.

    #1072352
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Every media organization, Jewish, frum or otherwise, should avoid changing pictures or facts to fit their viewpoint. For example, the Yiddish newspaper that edited out Hilary Clinton were right not to show a picture of her, but they should have blurred her out or cropped the photo, as opposed to making it appear as if she was not there. Firstly, this does show a lack of integrity that should be present even in frum publications (not that I believe they had an agenda, as many non-Jewish publications insinuated).

    As regards the general issue of not showing any picture of women; It is obvious that most photos should not be shown, even if modestly dressed, as one does not need to be immodestly dressed for it to be a breach of tznius. But when it comes to children or older women (e.g. Rebbitzen Kannievsky), there is more of a question. But omitting even those is understandable. Not in order to be machmir, as others have suggested, but simply making a cut-off point. It is too much to expect from a newspaper or magazine to carefully adjudge each picture as to whether it conforms. it is far simpler, and commendable, to simply not publish them.

    #1072353

    To me it seems it is meant to depict a historical event as it occurred and as further described in the accompanying article.

    Of course it isn’t. We’re dealing with a publication which, to the knowledge of its readership, does not print pictures of women, so the absence of women is meaningless in telling the story. Had a world leader been obscured by another, or by a lamppost, would you say it’s a falsehood to print the picture? Of course not, it’s not supposed to be a comprehensive list of attendees. The picture is there for illustrative purpose, and to dress up the article. The only difference would be intention, and since the intention of the editing was not to create a false impression, but for policy/shmiras einayim/tznius purposes, that argument falls apart.

    #1072354

    Regarding the tznius issue, I don’t know if it’s a falsehood in any context if the way she is portrayed is the way she did sometimes appear. Regardless, it brings up a good point, similar to the Artscroll “biographies” you mentioned. Any frum publication by definition sometimes has a standard higher than telling it as it is or was (by omission), because in many cases it is assur to do so (l”h, bizayon). Since that is the case, though, an omission is not a misrepresentation, because it is the expectation, according to the context. This, I believe, is your point regarding Artscroll biographies (I quote, “though In a general biography it would be dishonest to edit pictures”, implying that it’s not dishonest for Artscroll), which I agree with. Hamevaser never prints pictures of women, so the analogy seems quite apt.

    #1072355

    I am against the practice of digitally ALTERING a family pic to include someone who was never there.

    That is quite understandable, I would not be comfortable with that either. But there’s a difference between an alteration of addition and an alteration of omission.

    Had Hamevaser added R’ Ahron Leib Steinman or, l’havdil, President Obama to the picture, that would have been blatantly wrong.

    they should have blurred her out or cropped the photo

    Why is cropping better? Is it important to the story where she was sitting or standing?

    #1072356
    interjection
    Participant

    Why is cropping better? Is it important to the story where she was sitting or standing?

    Yes. It is rewriting history to present a picture as factual and to alter the picture without informing the audience.

    It bothers me just as much when ywn posts pictures of certain events and it’s the same picture every time (ie. obama golfing). Either the picture is as true as the story or don’t include a picture.

    No one would have complained if they chose a picture with (a) microscopic women or (b) a picture that happened to have not contained any women.

    Altering a picture shows that you cannot be trusted to give over a true unaltered story.

    #1072357
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Its not the same as cropping because with cropping people it is apparent that somebody may have been to the side. However depicting a sea of male world leaders gives the impression either that there are no female world leaders (Which some say is their goal, Im not sure) or that female world leaders werent there. Both of these are sheker.

    (As it is It is quite striking that in the sea of world leaders they only had to remove 3 (!) women).

    However I do think I may be coming around to your point of view. There is no question that It wouldve been better to print another picture (as you agreed). As far as falsehood, maybe you have a point I am not sure what the avergae Hamavaser reader thinks when he glances at the picture. Does s/he think there are no female world leaders or that they werent present? That is what I assumed at first glance, but on further reflection maybe you are right. MAybe they realize that they are looking at an edited picture (which begs the question why pictures are needed at all) in which case the sheker would be mitigated somewhat. (not completly though as it still doesnt smell right and there is no question some readers will view it as an honest depiction)

    It is actually the Artscroll anaology that got me thinking. Are they dishonest? Depends what they are percieved/billed as If they are depicted/percieved as true biographies by and large they are dishonest, but I think most people reading them know fully well that they are more haigrophic then historic in which case they do a great job depicting haigrophy,

    As you said “Any frum publication by definition sometimes has a standard higher than telling it as it is or was (by omission), because in many cases it is assur to do so (l”h, bizayon). Since that is the case, though, an omission is not a misrepresentation, because it is the expectation, according to the context. “

    This goes for both Hamevaser and Artscroll assuming that the readership is aware of the expected misrepresentation.

    #1072358

    Kudos for that post.

    I looked at the Haaretz article to see the picture again. There are people at either edge of the picture, so the implication that there was nobody else present simply doesn’t exist; it’s no different than cropping.

    The article is ridiculous; it is so obvious how they are putting their preconceived notions into their reporting. There’s not much of an attempt at presenting a facade of objectivity.

    Did they attempt to contact Hamevaser for an explanation? They don’t mention anything of the sort. Talk about falsehood in journalism…

    #1072359

    (Not a full response to this thread, obviously.)

    Oh, they were contacted all right…

    From The Guardian (and quoted by many news outlets):

    Binyamin Lipkin, editor of Hamevaser, said the newspaper is a family publication that must be suitable for all audiences, including young children.

    He also said he did not want to tarnish the memories of the people killed in the attacks.

    The Washington Post also included Guardian coverage of last

    time in one article (I don’t think anyone else did):

    #1072360

    Yes, I later saw that; this makes Haaretz’ coverage all the more blatant in its bias.

    #1072361

    Anyone on this site knows the first part of Lipkin’s statement is

    hogwash, even if secular people don’t – and they might, too. This is not about children. Even if it was somehow certain that the paper would never end up in a child’s hands, they wouldn’t print pictures of women. But if the world will take it, fine…

    The second part:

    Presumably, the logic is “Martyrs = holy, pictures of women = immodesty, and thus coverage of the former should not include the latter.”

    I had to work to figure that out, instead of taking it as

    “Women are unholy.” I can easily imagine people taking it that way,

    and I think it was a bad idea to say it to a secular news source.

    (It could even be interpreted as saying that the world desecrated

    the memory of the “martyrs” with their coverage…)

    Also, it’s irrelevant.

    Does the paper print pictures of women in any other context?

    No, it doesn’t, so this particular context doesn’t matter

    (unless this is meant as further reason not to bend the

    rules for this specific picture).

    #1072362
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Lipkin’s idea that a picture of a woman can desecrate the memory of the victims is just plain stupid. He said himself that the picture shouldn’t be a problem, but he didn’t publish it because of his policy. There’s no reason it should be a desecration, and I can see many women being upset over that remark.

    #1072363

    I’m pretty sure I know what he actually meant by that, but this definitely has not been handled, from beginning to end, with a lot of seichel.

    He was clearly saying it was done for modesty reasons, and the Guardian reported it that way. What Haaretz did was a pure hatchet job.

    #1072364
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I mostly agree with DaasYochid’s position here.

    1. It is absolutely ok for a frum publication to have a policy of not publishing pictures of women.

    2. The editors of Hamevaser were either unaware or uncaring of the reaction the doctored photo received. I don’t think they did this for attention, shock, or an “in your face” gesture.

    3. The negative reaction was primarily engendered by anti-Chareidi Jews in Israel, and was subsequently magnified by global media outlets that seek to equate Israelis and Islamic fanatics in order to maintain their ideas of moral relativism in the Middle East conflict. I don’t think Hamevaser should be totally blamed for this.

    All that said, while Hamevaser had no bad intentions and their edits did not change the substance of the photo, I think doctoring photographs for any reason would be regarded as dishonest by most, since there is an expectation that photographs are accurate representations of what the photographer saw through his/her lens. Even if it is not intended to be dishonest, therefore, I think that frum outlets should avoid altering photos based on darchei noam. Especially in the current atmosphere. There surely were other photographs available that suited the magazine’s needs without needing to photoshop.

    #1072365
    the plumber
    Member

    Im just pointing out that the chashuve news website, yeshiva world news, has an ad for “Zivug zone” that has a picture of a lady (chas veshalom) on it

    #1072366
    mw13
    Participant

    Here we go again…

    #1072367
    mw13
    Participant

    Is it just me, or does the media turn this into a bigger and bigger deal each time?

    (Although I’ll admit that (correctly) calling a particularly famous celebrity a “pornographic symbol” does help get headlines.)

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