Pigeons and Hepatitis

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  • #615618

    Does anyone know the source for using a pigeon to help cure hepatitis? Anyone who did it successfully? Thanks.

    #1075285

    I have seen it work, and I have spoken to others who have as well.

    #1075286

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    A close relative of mine did this procedure for his father and it worked.

    #1075287

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s in the DSM VI

    #1075288

    Do Canadian coins work?

    #1075289

    Matan1
    Participant

    There is no DSM VI, and the DSM is a manual for diagnosing mental illnesses, not physical ones.

    #1075290

    That was his point.

    #1075291

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no DSM VI, and the DSM is a manual for diagnosing mental illnesses, not physical ones.

    The DSM is a manual for advancing political agendas, so it would be an apt place to put this.

    #1075293

    How is the pigeon method political? It either works or is quackery, but why political?

    #1075294

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How is the pigeon method political? It either works or is quackery, but why political?

    Ok, so maybe it’s not in the DSM

    #1075295

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I think Taamim Uminhagim mentions it

    #1075296

    Sam2
    Participant

    Taamei Minhagim brings it down (in the back of the Sefer with a bunch of other Refuos). Some claim it works. Others claim to have shown how the trick is accomplished and how it doesn’t really heal anyone. It is important to note that other cultures use the same “treatment” for other diseases, so that lends credence to the fakery Tzad.

    #1075297

    How is the trick accomplished?

    #1075298

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    I know someone who did it and it worked.

    #1075299

    Health
    Participant

    yayin yashan bkli chadash -Vintage 5773 -“Does anyone know the source for using a pigeon to help cure hepatitis? “

    I’m Not going to discuss whether it works or not. Most cases in the Frum community are Hepatitis A. There is a vaccine for Hep A & it was around a good few years. Everybody should have it, especially those who live and visit EY!

    #1075300

    Vaccines?!?!?

    #1075301

    Since when does Ernst and Young have a hepatitis problem?

    #1075302

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I know a doctor who does this.

    #1075303

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Great. Now this is a vaccine thread.

    #1075304

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“Since when does Ernst and Young have a hepatitis problem?”

    Who’s Ernst & Young?

    #1075305

    EY.

    That’s not what you meant?

    #1075307

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    Your’s would be a better question on the “Going to EY for a date” thread.

    #1075308
    #1075309

    Health
    Participant

    DY – From previous news on YWN: “The Ministry of Health on Sunday, 3 Sivan 5774 announced a warning regarding the Eyal Hotel located on Shammai Street in Yerushalayim. The warning states a cook employed by the hotel has been diagnosed with Hepatitis A.”

    This wasn’t the only post about Hepatitis & Israel!

    #1075310

    Matan1
    Participant

    Get vaccinated!!!

    #1075311

    Sam2
    Participant

    A Reuters article from 2004:

    Egyptians unable to afford drugs that cost

    eight times the average annual wage are resorting to a bogus ritual with

    live pigeons to try to cure a serious liver disease, doctors said on

    Wednesday.

    The alternative treatment for hepatitis C emerged about a year ago and

    has become increasingly popular, they said. The ritual is not

    traditional and its origins are a mystery.

    “The treatment involves removing the feathers from the backside of a

    pigeon and holding it on the patient’s navel until the bird dies,” said

    Mona Abu-Zekry, a specialist in infectious diseases.

    Practitioners say the birds die after sucking the virus into their own

    bodies. Abu-Zekry said they secretly choke the birds to death while

    holding them against their patients.

    “It’s a fallacy. The people doing this are trying to make money from

    people who don’t know any better,” she said.

    Egypt suffers one of the world’s highest hepatitis C infection rates,

    the doctors said. The virus, which is spread by contact with infected

    blood, affects about 14 percent of the population and can cause liver

    failure and cancer.

    Soheir Sheir, a former head of internal medicine at Ain Shams University

    in Cairo, said the cost of a 24-week course to treat hepatitis C was

    45,000 Egyptian pounds ($7,323).

    The United Nations Development Program’s figure for Egyptians’ average

    annual income was 5,538 pounds in 2001.

    #1075312

    Sam2
    Participant

    The earliest Jewish source for the pigeon cure is in the Divrei Yitzchak in 1896 where he mentions that people do it.

    The oldest actual source is the classic occult/magic textbook by Frances Barrett called The Magus, or Celestial Intelligencer, published in 1801. He describes the same “cure” using a duck.

    (That totally makes this Darchei Emori, by the way. You’re welcome, DY.)

    #1075313

    Joseph
    Participant

    Just because those are the oldest sources you or some frei professor found, does not mean it is actually the oldest sources.

    #1075314

    yehudayona
    Participant

    There are (at least) three different diseases called hepatitis. Which one is this supposed to cure?

    #1075315

    Why are we arguing over whether or not it is legit if there are people here saying they have seen it? Obviously it works.

    #1075316

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    It might be an illusion or a coincidence.

    #1075317

    The divrei yitzchak supposedly brings a source from the gemara. I got the sefer, but was unable to find the piece. For all those who said that you are suffering from mental disease for thinking about it, our that is darkei emori, you’re going to have to answer for calling the taamei minhagim those things. Maybe think before sticking your head between the lions. (There is an article by Fred Rosner in the NYS Journal of Medicine 1992:5 titled “Pigeons as a remedy (segulah) for Hepatitis”. He actually cited a lot of relevant information.)

    #1075318

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    I saw it done by Rav Nosson Tzvi Cohen in Mir Yerushalayim in 1973. The bil rubin count of the patient was 29 when we started and 7 when we finished about 17 pigeons later. Instead of hospitalization, the patient was back n Bais Medrash in less than a week.

    Rabbi Twersky of Pittsburgh did lab tests to discover and found that it not scientific, but a spiritual siyata dishmaya.

    #1075319

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mod 29: Really? People have seen it? People have taken blood tests before, reviewed the samples, watched the pigeon thing, then taken another blood test and seen the lack of disease?

    Or maybe people have seen someone sick looking sick, seen a charlatan kill a pigeon on his stomach, and then seen the guy look better. The placebo effect is a powerful thing.

    YYBC: Yeah, and in that article Dr. Rosner proves that it is a complete fake. I didn’t quote him because there are reasons not to cite him, but he certainly doesn’t agree with the side that it works. And if the source is a Gemara all the more reason not to do it. I believe R’ Avraham Ben HaRambam’s Lashon on someone who follows the Gemara’s refuos is “Damav B’Rosho”.

    #1075320

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    RABBAIM: Who’s Rav Nosson Tzvi “Cohen”? Are you remembering the bilirubin numbers as well as you’re remembering the practitioner’s name?

    #1075321

    There is a difference between the segulos in the gemara and the refuos.

    #1075322

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    pretty sure i heard R dovid orlofsky say he was cured with pigeons once

    #1075323

    Health
    Participant

    yayin yashan bkli chadash -“Does anyone know the source for using a pigeon to help cure hepatitis?”

    Who cares? What gets me – is why not go to a doctor? Even if already exposed.

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