- This topic has 39 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 1 day, 13 hours ago by .
-
Posts
-
Your unrelenting attempts at advocacy to ensure the rights of the frum community are not only commendable but outright awe-inspiring! Orthodox organizations stand by their communities, fighting any possible hindrance to their freedom of speech, religion, etc. The frequent large-scale Torah Events are exciting, inviting, highly professional, and a true Kiddush Hashem. Honestly, it is to be envied by other communities! The accomplishments are impressive as well. Bills passed, funds allocated to Jewish Education, lifting the heavy burden of Tuition, stepping in for someone who was discriminated against for Shabbos Observance, Lobbying on Capitol Hill, and developing real friendships with Politicians who appreciate our communities. I can go on and on and on and its all true. BUT. What if all the above doesn’t succeed? What if your friends in the government are unable to help despite their goodwill? What happens if anti-Semitism doesn’t like your advocacy and persists no matter what? What happens if the situation gets worse, as it already is? And the real QUESTION? What if G- D Forbid Golus America ends like 100% of the other goluses??? What do we do then? Is there a plan B? I don’t want to get descriptive. It’s not necessary. WE NEED PLAN B!!
I would like to make a suggestion based on a Possuk in yeshayahu פרק ד פסוק ג. Yes, I am suggesting preparing American Jewry for mass Aliyah, and I even have a plan. Send a delegation for a series of meetings with Government Ministers, Minister of Housing, Minister of Labor, Minister of Education, Minister of Aliyah. (Yes Israeli Ministers) Say to them, we are preparing our communities for mass Aliyah. We want our communities and their families to be able to live near one another and to retain our culture, our educational system etc. We need proper and adequate employment and social services. We need shuls, schools, yeshivos, seminaries, etc. Lay down the infrastructure NOW! Don’t wait till it’s too late! I don’t like to beg, but I hereby beg you – Do it NOW!
It can be done. There are large empty expanses of land – in Yerushalaim and close by, and in other places as well. – Tell the Minister of Housing – You allocate the land, we will bring the builders (not the kind who build in every possible meter leaving no space for greenery, etc) the prices will be government-regulated for 18 months, during which period of time only people from X community will be able to buy. After 18 months, anyone will be able to buy. Within these new neighborhoods, there will have to be lots allocated for shuls, schools, yeshivos AND playgrounds, beautiful green parks etc. The Rabbonim of the shuls will only be able to be from X community as so too the principals of the schools and the Roshei Yeshiva. Demand easier conditions for opening businesses, easier taxation – whatever! (Dont worry you won’t get all you ask for- but it’s a beginning.)
Aliyah has many challenges but when done together, it’s a whole different story.
I know that I’ll be hit in the face with all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put, but times have changed. We are on the threshold of worldwide changes that we cannot foresee their results. WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!There is a button on your keyboard that something like “enter” or an arrow pointing down and back.
You should use it.
It helps to take what appears to be a wall of text (which seems like a rant) that most people won’t bother reading thoroughly, and turns it into a letter broken into thoughtful paragraphs that can be easily absorbed.
This is intended in a friendly manner, not snarkiness.
Plan C – A Response to the Open Letter from the Ultra Orthodox Community Leaders:
What if G- D Forbid Golus State of Israel ends like 100% of the other goluses??? The Zionist State is in Golus, too. In fact, everywhere on earth today is in Golus?
Did you hear of something called October 7? That occurred in Golus State of Israel.
Since the existence of the State is Israel, more Jews have been killed for being Jews in the State of Israel than the entire rest of the world combined.
Teretz? Only DAVENING helps. Nothing else.
Sincerely,
The Ultra Orthodox Community Leaders
So you’re asking for large empty expanses of land in Yerushalayim (and elsewhere) + free lots for schools, shuls and yeshiva along with adequate employment and tax breaks so that you can transplant your own ‘culture’ and educational system (which almost guarantees that you and your children will remain ill equipped for life in Eretz Yisroel). Why on earth? I mean you’re more than welcome to make Aliyah (and utilise the existing significant tax breaks for new olim) but what makes you think that the Israeli government should bankrupt themselves into providing everything for nothing? American Jewry is financially self sufficient and could self fund most of your wish list. Asking the Israeli taxpayer to do it for you (with nothing in return apart from many more years of financial assistance being sought) is just selfish and symptomatic of the self entitled attitude so many people have.
We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA.
Evalimoshavlo said:
“Yes, I am suggesting preparing American Jewry for mass Aliyah…”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:That is EXACTLY what Rabbi Meir Kahane [ZTL ZYA HYD] said,
in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, until the day he died.Back then, people ignored his warnings or laughed at him,
especially the Liberals, Leftists and Charedim.After all these years, you finally admit that: KAHANE WAS RIGHT!!!
OPEN LETTER TO EVALEMOSHIVLO
I would like to make a suggestion based on RAMBAM . Yes, I am suggesting preparing Orthodox Israeli Jewry for mass Yeridah, and I even have a plan.
Send a delegation for a series of meetings with Government Ministers. (Yes non Jewish Ministers)
Say to them, we are preparing our communities for mass Yeridah.
We want our communities and their families to be able to live near one another and to retain our culture, our educational system etc. We need proper and adequate employment and social services. We need shuls, schools, yeshivos, seminaries, etc.
It can be done. There are large empty expanses of land – in Chuts la’arets .
Yeridah has many challenges but when done together, it’s a whole different story.
I know that I’ll be hit in the face with all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put, but times have changed.
Our precious youth in Israel are hunted by a mafia-like unelected clique , like some sort of criminals.
This is totally unacceptable and unsustainable .
We cannot foresee the results of this unprecedented and evil witch hunt .
WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!
We MUST seriously consider mass yeridah , for the sake of the Jewish Nation’s eternal future !
.
.
.US style housing is a total non starter. Not happening. Period Stop.
Large available tracts of land near JLM? also non existant.
Israel has it’s own, internal housing shortage. They aint bending over backwards for people who may or may not be oleh.
The chareidi world in IL has a housing crisis, They;ve been working on this for DECADES with little success.Culture… What culture? Baseball?
You come to EY to be oleh in kedusha, not be pogeh in the ruchnius of those who already live there or bring your shtusim from chulWADR, by using the term “Ultra-Orthodox”, in the title no less, you instantly self identify as non-Chareidi…
“all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put”
As long as Moshiach hasn’t come yet, there need not be any ‘guilt over staying put’. Whether moving to Eretz Yisroel is the right move for any given individual or family depends on many factors and is a serious and personal decision, not for you to make for them. There is no one size fits all.
Forget about the Israeli government, Ministry of Housing, yadda yadda. They don’t wan’t Dossim. Just raise enough money to buy property, bribe the relevant officials to not make problems, and build on your own. There are several beautiful new neighborhoods that meet most of your suggested standards. The price of a new apartment in these places ensures that only Americans from X community buy there…
Demand easier conditions for opening businesses, easier taxation – whatever!
Tell them that for the locals too… Good luck… You actually do get certain tax breaks when you make Aliyah, if you know how to play the system.
We are on the threshold of worldwide changes that we cannot foresee their results. WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!
Because right here in Eretz Yisroel there are never any “changes that we cannot foresee their results”? The Chiloni government has a real “Plan B”? There are many reasons to move here for growth in ruchniyus if you can deal with the challenges, but your reason is not one of them.
Herzl, yimach shemo, had a similar plan for similar heretical reasons.
yankel berel:
Great post re: yeridah.SQUARE_ROOT and other Zionists:
He was wrong then, is wrong now and will be wrong forever. Of all places that Jews live, the Zionist paradise is statistically, by far, the most dangerous place for Jews. And the wicked Zionists hate the frum Jews and are attacking them now in unprecedented ways, attempting to end the olam haTorah in the portions of EY under their control. Zionism is itself diametrically opposed to Judaism.Again, as mentioned, we have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA, not the Zionist paradise. We also have explicit prophesies from the prophets that being in Jerusalem at the end of times will not exactly be a picnic.
The truth is that if one did not believe Rav Chaim Volozhin, then the logical thing to do would be to look into other civilized countries, not to be shmaded by the Zionists in their paradise that is perpetually in “existential risk” according to their own leaders.
YFRBachur – US style housing is a total non starter. Not happening. Period Stop.
Large available tracts of land near JLM? also non existent.Those two ‘kashes’ cancel each other out. There are ‘US style’ houses, available, if you are willing to move further out. There are some beautiful communities like that which cater specifically to American Olim.
Israel has it’s own, internal housing shortage. They aint bending over backwards for people who may or may not be oleh.
The reasons for that shortage have nothing to do with lack of room to build. Overregulation and bureaucracy are the main reasons, and if you have enough money they can be dealt with… In the immediate Yerushalayim area there are in fact real topographical and political (‘green line’ etc.) limitations on where you can expand.
Yankel, I hope you aren’t serious…
In the short term, the most likely outcome is that America will move to the center (ethe non-WOKE Democrats and/or the non-MAGA Republicans will retake control of their parties, or they will get together and form a third party supported by the moderate, and “silent” majority of voters). Eretz Yisrael will increasingly be under American control but while some religious Jews will be unhappy, it will still be better economically and politically for Shomer Shabbos Yidden in Eretz Yisrael (and if non-zionist Hareidim grow in number, they might be able to work out something with the Yismaelim to bring about peace, something the secularists have been unable to do for the last century).
In the long run, as it has always been, we will move from one golus to another. Perhaps “red” parts of America are an option. Perhaps some countries with no history of anti-Semitism (or a history of conflict with Muslims) might be an option. If we wait long enough, perhaps all those questions on Jews living in space or on other planets will have to be taken seriously. Of course, Meshiach might come, but then the entire need for this discussion will be “moot”.
Yaakov Yosef A: I have no idea if Yankel was serious, but I believe the idea was floated in the past as a response to the draft issue.
@yaakov yosef
I am not serious ….
I cannot stand ideological straightjackets .
posters like katan and somejew from one side and posters like evalemoshiv and square on the other side
all have their agendas and they push them irrespective of the real world realities and the inevitable consequences their so called solutions will engender
they are doing so blindly and therefore are dangerous
baruch hashem we still have special people amongst us gdolei yisrael who can help us navigate these very difficult issues.
.
.@OP:
I made Aliyah and agree with YYA.
Let them stay in the US. Moshiach hasn’t come anyway and most people wouldn’t accept a Moshiach who doesn’t look exactly like them, which means nothing is changing.akuperma:
“if non-zionist Hareidim grow in number, they might be able to work out something with the Yismaelim to bring about peace, something the secularists have been unable to do for the last century”If you think this is possible, you very clearly don’t know anything about Islam and Arabs.
HaKatan:
“We have a mesorah from Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station for Torah in galus is the USA.”Provide a documented source (Sefer, page, footnote, etc.) that can actually be looked up. The phrase “we have a mesorah” isn’t good enough.
Yankel Berel and @fakenews – We also have a Mesorah that the essential Mahus of Eretz Yisroel is Emunah, and nothing the Zionists do can change that. מה שאין כן in Chutz Haaretz, the Communists and others were able to completely eradicate Judaism in their locations. (Even that wasn’t 100%) We see this again and again, that despite relentless incitement and defamation against Torah true Judaism (by the tiny Erev Rav minority), more and more Neshamos find their way back to Yiddishkeit. Just look at what has been going on here for the last two years, and especially with the returning hostages. What you hear in the news is only a fraction of what is actually going on (thanks to the Israeli MSM being controlled by the aforementioned Erev Rav.)
HaKatan – speaking of the Mesorah from R’ Chaim of Volozhin, אדרבה, where do you think the next station after America is? The Chofetz Chaim (who knew about the Mesorah) already said where ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה. I’m not saying that everyone has to pick up and run right now, but ממילא the train will have to move on, as it always did throughout the Galus. To say how and when that will happen, and at what point in the process will the true גאולה take place, is beyond my pay grade.
If you are worried about the Nevuah of Yechezkel and Zechariah about what will be in Eretz Yisroel, which we anyway don’t know pshat exactly how and when that already was/or will be, the Chofetz Chaim and other Gedolei Yisroel knew about that too and didn’t see that as a reason not to live here. Chutz LaAretz in Ikvesa D’Meshichah is not going to be a picnic either…
All of this doesn’t in any way change the simple reality that moving to Eretz Yisroel is not something to do because of hysteria and political speculations, but as a serious decision in your personal growth in Avodas Hashem in consultation with Daas Torah. If not, then as they say here, חבל על הזמן. It is still perfectly possible to be a fine Ehrlicher Yid in America, or ח״ו to be the opposite anywhere. Don’t make your decision based on anonymous letters of דעת בעלי בתים…
We say in at the end of the haftorah for a taanis tzibur עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו, I will collect additional collections. We see from this that the all Jews will not go to Israel at the same time.
“In the short term, the most likely outcome is that America will move to the center (ethe non-WOKE Democrats and/or the non-MAGA Republicans will retake control of their parties, or they will get together and form a third party supported by the moderate, and “silent” majority of voters)“
😂😂😂😂
Akuperma, you’ve been around for years but you seriously believe that!?! With the likes of AOC and MTG ilhan omar and Matt gaetz the parties aren’t becoming more moderate and good luck getting a third party in when the media fuels a lot of it
Need I warn about the dangers of speaking negatively about eretz yisrael? E”Y is eretz hakodesh, the land that Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov walked. The land that Hashem promised to us and is now available to us to go to. Whether controlled by an irreligious body or not is irrelevant. Ribi Shimon Bar Yohai is clear: E”Y is a gift given to us with yisurim. Instead of basking in the relative ease with which we can learn Torah outside of E”Y we should admire the mesirut nefesh those living in E”Y must endure to learn Torah, and recognize that it is precisely that mesirut nefesh that will ultimately put E”Y in the right hands.
The future of Yiddishkeit is more clearly in Israel than it is in Israel. Eventually it’ll catch up to Lakewood and chasidim who are hiding in Upstate NY. The strategy didn’t work in 1930s Poland.
user176
“Need I warn about the dangers of speaking negatively about eretz yisrael? E”Y is eretz hakodesh…Whether controlled by an irreligious body or not is irrelevant. ”Nobody is speaking negatively about E”Y. But, the “who is controlling” (part of) it question is obviously very relevant if you are considering moving there.
“…the mesirut nefesh those living in E”Y must endure to learn Torah…it is precisely that mesirut nefesh that will ultimately put E”Y in the right hands.”
This is totally made up. Hashem alone will control when He will return to E”Y. Hashem loves all His children wherever in the world they may be, and it’s very possible that a guy doing daf yomi in Phoenix despite a long day at work, etc. will be just as much a factor in bringing the geulah as anyone else’s mesirus nefesh for Torah.
It’s unfair for anyone to pin 90% of God fearing Jews under statements and hashkafot that are not the end all be all. Every word from our gedolim is to be revered and considered very seriously, but at the end of the day even our great tanaim and amoraim were often hozer bo, and many great talmide chachamim have offered contradictory opinions and have erred. No one mesorah holds the key to true Torah Judaism. And as great as they are, the Rabbis quoted here are not neviim and their statements are not Torah Misinai. We should always stick to the words of our Rabbis, because they are our lifeline, but we should not use their words against others, especially when they have their own lifeline to hold on to. Honestly, I’m sickened by the hatred. This is literally sinat hinam. Literally naval birshut haTorah. Using a the words of gedolim to discredit fellow Jews. May Hashem open your eyes soon.
there is no reason to think that the pusik you mention is referring to Eretz Yisroel. Rather there a Rishonim who explicitly say the kibitz gulyos will NOT be in Eretz Yisroel. This is why there are separate issirim in gulis of 1) gathering all jews together anywhere and 2) making a mass aliyuh to Eretz Yisrael.
@YYA – Don’t worry. HaKatan isn’t making Aliyah anytime within this lifetime. He’ll live anywhere but Israel. Even if he doesn’t say it, it’s plainly obvious from his posts.
ZSK – With regard to the Mesorah from R’ Chaim of Volozhin, I believe it is first recorded in the Sefer Keser Rosh which was recorded by one of his talmidim. It is well known that such a mesorah exists. None of this has anything to do with this thread though. The chiddush of R’ Chaim was that America would one day be a major center of Torah. To make such a statement in the early 1800’s was quite shocking. He didn’t say when that would happen, and how long it would remain that way. He certainly never said that any individual or group is obligated to go there or stay there in order to bring this about. It does imply that AFTER America the next stop is Eretz Yisroel and the true Geulah, not galus to a different country.
Reb Eliezer – We say in at the end of the haftorah for a taanis tzibur עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו, I will collect additional collections. We see from this that the all Jews will not go to Israel at the same time.
There is a Mesorah from Rebbe Nachman of Breslev interpreting that posuk exactly that way – that there will be a partial return followed by the complete return with Moshiach.
Yankel Berel – Thank you for clarifying… Some people are capable of taking such things literally. I also don’t like these ‘open letters’ from anonymous Baalei Batim with bright ideas how to save Klal Yisroel.
Yaakov Yosef A said:
“There is a Mesorah from Rebbe Nachman of Breslev
interpreting that posuk exactly that way – that there will be
a partial return followed by the complete return with Moshiach.”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:This means that the State of Israel — even with all of its flaws —
is part of the beginning of the redemption.SQUARE_ROOT – This means that the State of Israel…
NO IT DOES NOT! According to your logic, all of the bad things mentioned at the end of Maseches Sotah that will happen BEFORE Moshiach comes are, in your opinion, PART OF the Geulah. They aren’t. They are the LAST PART OF THE GOLUS. One could definitely say that the State of Israel is חוצפא יסגא והיוקר יאמיר והמלכות תהפך למינות with all the הידורים according to all the shittos… October 7 could very well be a fulfillment of ואנשי הגבול יסובבו מעיר לעיר ולא יחוננו, is that also אתחלתא דגאולה? Is there a מצוה to try to do all the things listed there in the Gemara to somehow hasten the Geulah? Of course not. These things are a statement of fact that such and such will occur before the real Geulah does. No נפקא מינה whatsoever להלכה. No hetter to fudge any real Torah and Mitzvos obligations to bring any of this about.
square seems as brainwashed and closed to facts and reason as somejew and katan ….
seems that I have to ask mehila from all three …..
.
.Evalemoshavlo – You seem to forget that almost all Jews killed worldwide in the last 80 years have been killed either in Israel or because of Israel?
When your leaders lose their minds and see you as an extension of the state of Israel (?!) , it wont help to convince them otherwise. It is a sure call to scram!!
And go to – the State of Israel? And there they can’t kill us ר״ל?
על פי דרך הטבע what you are saying is pure nonsense. Rounding up all the Jews to a “concentrated location” to make the Final Solution easier. The Goyim aren’t going to stop hating us. The Brisker Rov said in ’48 that he has a kashe on BG ימ״שׁ. How did BG push so hard for an independent state and departure of all British troops, when he knew that על פי דרך הטבע the Arabs were far stronger. How could he BG be סומך על הנס without believing in nissim? אלא מאי, BG ימ״ש was stam a mufkar who didn’t care how many Jewish lives he endangered as long as he achieved his goals – or bust.
The only thing protecting us, anywhere, is Hashem’s bris with Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov, and we try our best to be מעורר רחמי שמים through Torah and Mitvos, Teshuvah Tefillah and Tzedaka. If moving to Eretz Yisroel will bring you closer to Hashem and His Torah, then wonderful. If not, then shelter in location and do Teshuvah.
Community Leaders. Please implement common sense. It would be really sad to see Jewish Americans losing their yiddishkeit because of an ill advised and unprepared move. When your leaders lose their minds and see you as an extension of the state of Israel, it wont help to convince them otherwise. It is a sure call for hizuk in torah and ma’asim tovim !! If you all go to Florida or to Israel – it could happen there too. Hashem is calling his children home , back to Him and they refuse to listen, instead they speak about Aliyah ! Thats ridiculous! Strengthen your selves with Emunah and come HOME , back to your loving Father in heaven ! Anywhere on the globe ! Do not move without consulting a Rav who knows you , your family and your situation .
Otherwise , you are foolishly endangering your own and your children’s yahadut !There is a report in a sefer of two trains with Jewish refugees in Sep 1939 – one going from Nazi occupation to Soviet, and the other going in the opposite direction, with passengers of of both them shouting to the other – idiots, where are you going!?
I saw this recently as a gilgul as a joke in JFK airport to/from Israel. I don’t know whether the joke author heard of the true original …
AAQ – Those who managed to sneak out of the Nazi occupied zone could not and did not do so by train, so the “true story” is a moshol at best.
@AAQ
bet that occupants of BOTH trains in your mashal of 1939
would literally give away everything they owned to be able to be on either plane , no difference whether to JFK or to Israel ….
BH that the dilemma today is between JFK and Israel and not between the Soviets and the Nazis …..
.
.Yya, this was from someone’s memoirs, probably several weeks after the war started, USSR attacked Poland 2 weeks after Germany did and lines of control were fluid at that moment.
Yankel, I agree, but so many people were following logic that sounded kosher at the time. At minimum, this shows limits of our understanding of current events. Or think whether it was possible for polish jews to figure out politics of the time? On one hand, ww2 events were unprecedented even after terrible ww1 where most casualties were soldiers, not including russian revolution. On the other hand, is it not delusional to think you are safe when sandwiched between commies and nazis with millions already killed even before ww2 on one side and specific prosecution of jews on the other.
@AAQ
there were no trains filled with jews going either way
not from the soviet side and not from the nazi side
read and establish the reality
.@AAQ
my comment was specifically re the non comparison between the choice then and the choice now
it almost reminds me of comparing the choice between vanilla and chocolate ice cream vs the choice between literal life and death
you seem from your answer to have missed my point
btw – that’s an example of what I mean when I complain that you change topics ….
.
.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.