Polio Making a Comeback?

NC

Just to clarify a point in my most recent post .
I said “Your system sounds evil. sure government has its problems but these are bugs not features. Your approach is designed this way”

What I mean is any problem with the government, my response is “ok lets work to fix it” Government led to holocaust? Ok lets have a system with checks and balances/separation of powers to prevent one branch (certainly individual) from becoming too strong. Any other problem you identify my response will be the same, ok lets fix it. The “fix” may even be ok lets give that role to the private sector.
Plus the private sector ALSO exists so going back to my original point of discussion regarding clean water. I’m on board with allowing individuals to sue if an entity contaminates water supply. I am not saying leave it solely to the government. I dont think thats enough PLUS as alluded to in last psot STILL need government to adjudicate the lawsuit and to enforce its decision
with your system when there are problems (and there are plenty as I identified) repsosne is thats just the way it has to be.

Also your original comment that first intrigued me namely “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.” was a bit of an understatement. within your worldview of course you don’t

NC

“I’m arguing that the only people making life altering decisions should be the individuals involved. It’s nobody else’s business.”

That isn’t completely true. Depends how you define “individuals involved” obviously you polluting water supply or not paying your fire insurance affects others, arguably those too are “individuals involved” yet they cant stop you

NC

forgive me I have lots of pending comments, but I genuinely find this interesting.

you are exactly right in your analysis of how the conversation progressed

In a pending comment I wrote in response to your comment “I’m arguing that the only people making life altering decisions should be the individuals involved. It’s nobody else’s business.”

That isn’t completely true. Depends how you define “individuals involved” obviously you polluting water supply or not paying your fire insurance affects others, arguably those too are “individuals involved” yet they cant stop you

I think this is the crux of our discussion.
when your decisions DOES affect me do I get a say. , I would assume you’d say no its solely your decision Even if you have say TB you should be allowed to travel the world as you see fit . You should be allowed to dump your toxic by products wherever you want (in public areas) – correct me if I’m wrong.
(You seem to offer conflicting responses since a few posts were defending why private fire departments would be better – if I understand you correctly it doesnt matter, If you choose not to pay for fire insurance and set fire to your house 10 feet from mine during a dry windy season that is yoru right Even if it was a worse system still nobody;’s business what decisions you make. correct?)
Do I have this right?

and other issue of people who cant make their own decisions, whci you conceded was a “kasha”

“What I mean is any problem with the government, my response is “ok lets work to fix it””
How much does it make sense to sink into repairs before it’s just time to scrap the thing? Should China try to “fix” communism rather than abandoning it? Should Germany have tried to “fix” the Nazi Party?

“Ok lets have a system with checks and balances/separation of powers”
Agreed that this is the best we can do in reality.

“The “fix” may even be ok lets give that role to the private sector.”
That’s not a “fix;” that’s just you being maskim in those cases that the government should stay out of it.

“was a bit of an understatement. within your worldview of course you don’t”
No, because you can have an ideal for a perfect government (or lack thereof) while also holding opinions on how the US government should operate in real life.

“no problem is the opposite of what you are suggesting in whcih we only help put out your fire if you pay us”
Ah, no that’s my bad. We were talking about private fire departments because you brought an example of one, so I was defending the idea. I still agree that volunteer ones are good and potentially superior. I was not arguing against voluntarily putting out fires.

“Are you suggestign there would be less abuse of children with no government?”
No, I agree that you’re most likely correct that the problem would get worse. Nonetheless, it’s still a prediction whereas government atrocities are an observable reality.

“go for it. I cant think of any specific areas”
OK, since you can’t think of any areas where you would cut back government I’ll use the same argument you used above on this page: when you said you do support public health, it “was a bit of an understatement. Within your worldview, of course you do.”

“when your decisions DOES affect me do I get a say”
The problem is then it becomes a game of how to twist everything into “affecting me” so that I get to tell everyone how to live their lives.

“Do I have this right?”
I’m not sure. I don’t mean to be rude, but I actually didn’t understand a lot of what you meant in there. It seemed like there were some words missing or something.

NC

How much does it make sense to sink into repairs before it’s just time to scrap the thing? ….
Agreed that this is the best we can do in reality.”

So we are doing ok! Not like China or naziism.
No need to scrap . If there was then scrap

“That’s not a “fix;” that’s just you being maskim in those cases that the government should stay out of it.”
Yes!
I propose the perfect system call it a fix or not. Whatever works

.

I’ll use the same argument you used above on this page: when you said you do support public health, it “was a bit of an understatement. Within your worldview, of course you do.”

Yes! Not an argument. That’s a compliment. Public health is probably the greatest government success there is eradication of smallpox near eradication of polio. Clean water sewage control all has led to a huge rise in life expectancy.
Of course I support it directly led to better outcomes. Something the private sector did not and could not do.
That’s not a gotcha. Exactly right of course I support it

“when your decisions DOES affect me do I get a say”
The problem is then it becomes a game of how to twist everything into “affecting me” so that I get to tell everyone how to live their lives.

Thats true
So we vote and decide as a group.
It has to be that way. Your system.has the same problem. I say target shooting in my apartment with its thin walls and a family on the others side only affects me. I imagine they feel. Differently. Some say polluting drinking water doesn’t affect anbody else those down stream feel differently
How do we decide what’s your own buisness and what affects others?

amom > Public Health may have parts that were successful, but mostly unsuccessful.
Look at the trust the public has in this agency

If you take a broader/longer view of public health, it is extremely successful. Just think of families, R’L 100+ years ago when up to half of children routinely did not survive till adulthood … there were also problems that were caused by modernity. For example, people drank milk with reasonable safety – until they moved to big cities and milk was transported and stored …

Of course, Jews were practicing natilas yadayim well before that. Interesting fact, Natan Strauss (Macy’s/Netaniya, Rehov Strauss in Yerushalaim) spend a lot of time convincing New York City to pasteurize that milk – fighting those ignorami who did not trust it. Btw, he also built Lakewood hotel – because when his relatives were visiting him, they were not allowed to stay at the hotels in Lakewood …

“That’s not a gotcha. Exactly right of course I support it”
So then my response when you said the inverse to me is:

That’s not a gotcha. Exactly right, of course I don’t support it!
You’re consistent in your shittah of seemingly always supporting government, and I’m consistent in my shittah of seemingly never supporting it.

“So we are doing ok! Not like China or naziism.
No need to scrap . If there was then scrap”
To circle all the way back to my original point, I believe the CDC and NIH are bad enough to need to be scrapped.

“So we vote and decide as a group.”
If the majority, or even plurality of people drive Fords, should I have to drive a Ford instead of anything else? Why should I be given the individual choice to go against the majority? You like the services that the CDC and NIH provide, so you can pay for them, but I don’t, so why should I have to?

“How do we decide what’s your own buisness and what affects others?”
With guns and lawsuits.

“just think of families, R’L 100+”
None of the federal, public health organizations in question existed 100+ years ago. Louis Pasteur did not make his discoveries on behalf of the government.

“Natan Strauss (Macy’s/Netaniya, Rehov Strauss in Yerushalaim) spend a lot of time convincing New York City to pasteurize that milk – fighting those ignorami who did not trust it.”
I don’t think the City is in the business of pasteurizing milk. I assume you mean he lobbied them to ban unpasteurized milk even though it in no way affects him if someone else choses to take the risk and drink it. Yes, people were forcing their own beliefs on others a long time ago too, maybe even more so. That doesn’t prove that it’s a good idea.

NC

“You’re consistent in your shittah of seemingly always supporting government, and I’m consistent in my shittah of seemingly* never supporting it.”

That isnt my shita. but yes You’re consistent I didn’t mean to imply otherwise

when conversation first began and you said “I don’t public health should exist as a concept.t” I thought I would “get you” statement was (and is) so preposterous to me that I assumed 1) you dint know what public health was (are we differed on what was included) or 2) you hadnt thought the statment through

I was completely wrong
You have your shita driven by, I’m not sure what exactly, but interesting nonetheless
But it isnt a “public health” shita. At first I (wrongly) assumed it was. thats what I meant by my comment.
Granted I dont have a soley “public health” shita either, but the conversation started with your statement which I thought was about public health

“If the majority, or even plurality of people drive Fords, should I have to drive a Ford instead of anything else?”
no.
See I dont always support the government. There should be no regulation requiring everyone to buy Fords

“You like the services that the CDC and NIH provide, so you can pay for them, but I don’t, so why should I have to?”
Because you benefit from them. And even if you think you don’t or even if you actually dont its part of living in society. Same as if you oppose war your taxes fund wars. You are of course free to vote for an anti-war candidate or and anti-CDC candidate. But at some point collective decisions need to be made and not every indicdual is happy (You knew this I dont get what your getting at)

“With guns and lawsuits.”
Am I right in assuming you oppose gun limiting legislation? what about machine guns? heavy weapons/explosives such as bazookas/ grenades? chemical weapons? any restrictions on those?

Also how are the judges apointed who enfoirces their decisions?

(* you stuck in “seemingly” was this intentional? is there some government entity/regulation that you do support that I haven’t uncovered?)

“Then give me an example where you don’t support the government. A real, concrete example. ”

I thought I did
I oppose a regulation requiring everyone to buy Ford cars.

“I have yet to see any evidence that you actually support any limits on the government by the people or even from within the government.”
Because you have yet to provide an example where we would be better off not being regulated. (Besides the Ford example)

“I would benefit from the Ford too,”
I’m not sure what you mean. you DO benefit from the eradication of smallpox, you DO benefit from clean water and air. you benefit from food safety regulations etc etc. Not “would benefit” therefore it is fair to have your taxes fund them. You say “Also, I’d prefer to leave it up to me what I do and don’t benefit from.” But the problem is youre wrong. You don’t think you benefit from all these examples when you clearly do . You think a private fire department would work and that everybody would pay their fire insurance (a demonstrably wrong supposition) . This answers your question “Why are you so afraid of leaving it up to this”

Agree with you on slippery slope arguments.

“If you have time, look up “night watchman state.”

Thanks! (earlier I asked for more background on this view of yours – thanks)