July 21, 2021 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1993591
I always thought politics and kashrus don’t mix, if someone is paying to get a certificate from a kashrus organization and follows their rules how can the organization drop their certification in regards to politics
So how can there be a push for the Kof k to drop Ben and Jerry’s?July 21, 2021 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1993613AviraDeArahParticipant
In some people’s view, singling out Israel over other countries that have human rights violations (china, Russia, Arab world) is anti semitic bias. Why would B&J only boycott Israel, while ignoring actual genocide of Chinese Muslims and other atrocities?
I tend to agree, though I’m no fan of Israel or its policies, as I’ve made abundantly clear here over the past few weeksJuly 21, 2021 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1993614nishtdayngesheftParticipant
For an organization to provide a kashrus certification, there needs to be a level in trust for the kashrus organizations procedures to be effective.
I guess, quite reasonably, that an entity that adopts anti-semitic policies likely would negate that level of trust.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993628ParticipantParticipant
you’re right but ice cream and politics also don’t mix so it’s fighting fire w fire.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993627MilhouseParticipant
This is not politics, it’s antisemitism. Kof K should boycott Ben & Jerry just like everyone else is.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993626
Kashrus is a question trust.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993618
sorry on the contrary, kashrus is kolo politics, for example catering halls under Badatz wont serve Coke product because it has Rav Lando Hechsher, and vice versa with catering halls under Rav Lando with Pepsi.
Young Isreals had a major falling out with OU and hooked up with Star KJuly 21, 2021 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1993611
Because Zionism comes before everything else.July 21, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1993684
Should be above, kashrus is a question of trust, so when they don’t support the religious trust is lost, so is kashrus.July 21, 2021 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1993693Shalom-al-IsraelParticipant
What does anti Jewish bigotry have to with term “politics”?July 22, 2021 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1993695ari-freeParticipant
If a kosher restaurant hosted jews for j lectures you’d be ok with that receiving a hechsher?July 22, 2021 5:07 am at 5:07 am #1993712rationalParticipant
Kashrus has always been subject to extra-halachic considerations. Every learned person knows that a Rav can declare meat treif if it comes from out-of-town and endangers the financial stability of the local kosher butcher. When I was young, the Rav of Silver Spring, Md. did just that to the meat coming from Baltimore.July 22, 2021 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1993746
@ rational “Rav can declare meat treif if it comes from out-of-town and endangers the financial stability of the local kosher butcher” thats a new one for me. as long has the rav feel ok with the butcher it does not matter where the meat supplier is.
I know of case where the Rav pulled a hecksher on a boat cruise after they included mixed dancingJuly 22, 2021 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1993766Avi KParticipant
Ujm, I see that you did teshuva. Yasher koach.July 22, 2021 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1993792The little I knowParticipant
Here is an interesting question. A restaurant engages in shady business practices. They might be using stolen merchandise. They might be collecting cash payments and not reporting them. They might be cheating their employees regarding their wages. You get the point. Should the hechsher be withdrawn if these issues come to light? Or do we consider the hechsher limited to the kashrus of the food?
I know of a specific instance where there were such issues, and the hechsher was withdrawn, causing the establishment to fold.
I understood that the intent of the hechsher was to oversee the matters related to food. But a hechsher on an establishment implies that everything there is being done in accordance with halacha. I doubt machshirim examine the books. But if such issues do surface, a hechsher should be withdrawn. It’s not just politics.July 22, 2021 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1993812
“If a kosher restaurant hosted jews for j lectures you’d be ok with that receiving a hechsher?“
The vaad of the five Towns has restaurants with TVs (that play sports) under their hashgacha (probably other hashgachas too) so that means that they hold of tv?July 22, 2021 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1993817GadolhadorahParticipant
I would assume that most CR posters would find it equally objectionable to rely on any hashgacha associated with the Netuei Kartah or any similar vermin who knowingly advocate for the destruction of the medinah and engage in disgusting publicity events which put the lives of yidden at risk. The issue is simply one of supporting or legitimizing those who seek to harm us, not whether they are reliable mashgichim.July 22, 2021 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1993890ubiquitinParticipant
“Should the hechsher be withdrawn if these issues come to light? Or do we consider the hechsher limited to the kashrus of the food?”
I dont think those are the two exclusive sides.
There is no question (in my mind) that a hashgacha is not limited to the status of food. nobody would support a hashgacha supervising a place of ill repute , as long as the food was kosher. A hashgacha stamp of approval on an establishment certainly certifies that the “establishment” is kosher. This includes decor , ambiance all of which go into making an “establishment”
That said. things unrelated to the “establishment” are not the kashrus’s purview. So if the owner cheats on his taxes, while certainly bad, the fact that the store has an OU (or whatever) doesnt mean, they support that. (unless of course the Store is called “Tax cheats and eats” coem get tips how to cheat taxes while havign a delcious lunch. In that case a hashgacha saying we only cerrtify the ood would be wrong)
Yes, of course there will be examples that are hard to neatly fit into wehter it is in or out of kashrus’s bounds using this metric, but I think it is a reasonabe lrule of thumb.
I don’t think Ben and Jerrys are defining themselves as an anti Israel company. They are taking “liberal stance” one that I disagree with, but nobody would see a chaf K/OU on their ice cream and think hey I guess the OU views the land as “occupied”
furthermore, I am a bit worried about the perception of pulling the hashgacha. Kashrus is largely supported by Non-Jew as documented in several recent books (Sue Fishoff’s Kosher nation, Kosher USA and Kosher private regulation in the Age of industrial food all come to mind).
There is a push among the anti Semites to avoid kosher as it is a “kosher tax” many of them claim as well, that this tax funds “Israeli occupation” If a kashrus orginazation pulls kashrus certification because the company wont support “Israeli occupation” it certainly lends credence to them.
To be clear: Pulling the certification would not be for that reason, and its not like these groups have much support – yet. It could be a problem later and it rubs me thewrong way.
That said continuing hashgacha is a bit funny vis a vis the company, here we are boycotting, and publicizing the boycott then “The Rabbi” comes in and says ok lets talk business we are here to certify you as kosher.
I vote keep hashgacha, but I’m not convinced. Just offering food for thought
“while ignoring actual genocide of Chinese Muslims and other atrocities?”
Ben and Jerry’s doesn’t sell in chinaJuly 22, 2021 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1993894
I like questions and these are fascinating! It is not of question to monitor kashrus of business practices. If you are from Lita, check your old seforim by Chofetz Chaim: if it has “Muga” scribbled in pencil, that is because the author was personally checking that the books were printed and bound correctly. There are various organizations that check whether funds invest in illegal diamonds, child labor. some might do what these tzvei alter ice-screamers did – object to Israeli investments …
So, it might be possible to have a kashrus organization that checks the books and certifies them.
Need to know the standards though, maybe there will be:
gnivas israel heksher that allows over-charging non-Jews
tzvei dinim heksher – allows two sets of books, as long as both pass the kashrus separately
2-hand image heksher – given to those who shook hands with R Shimon bar Yochai
picture of an elderly Jew – to those who fully pay social security tax
hebrew national – certifies that you were not yet fined by IRS
1099 heksher – all employees working as contractorsJuly 22, 2021 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1993896
I am glad that this icecream brought all of us together. Even the staunch anti-Zs understand that we are all the same for anti-semites.
Someone wrote that in some place in Poland when Nazis were putting a shul on fire, a socialist ran in trying to save a sefer Torah …July 22, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1993897
I heard a quick response from a Rav, who said it is not a psak:
Q1: boycott? We have history of boycotts usually when the price is outrageous – fish on shabbos. A couple of gemorahs where Rabonim threatened merchants that they will rule according to a minority opinion (what hadasim are kosher, etc) to ruin their business if the prices do not go down.
Q2: should one destroy ice-cream in his freezer? It is not hurting the company, even if you post the picture of that on twitter, and there is bal tashlis issue. Maybe, only if you physically feel like you are eating treif …July 22, 2021 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1993941
When the cheftza does not change in kashrus can we eat it? As we said that trust changes, the answer would be no.July 22, 2021 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1993945zahavasdadParticipant
there is a product called Big Gay Ice Cream, It has an O-U on it. There were some people who tried to get the OU to remove the Hechsher on itJuly 23, 2021 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1994052
Avi K, I noticed that you started speaking Yiddish, as Yidden should. Ah groisa dank.July 23, 2021 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1994117
What Yiddish did Avi say?July 23, 2021 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1994153anonymous JewParticipant
An example of a kashrus overreach. About 25 to 30 years ago, the Vaad of the Five Towns decided to add a second page to their hashgacha posted in store windows. Right side dealt with. Kashus in the store. The left side dealt with how the owners lived at home ( i.e. tznius, hair covering, did wife wear pants, did man daven with minyan etc ). All the stores refused, saying their personal lives were none of their concern . The Vaad backed downJuly 23, 2021 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1994164ari-freeParticipant
Gadolhatorah i didn’t call for boycotting b&j because of liberal views that they’ve had for years until they actually turned it into a policy that targets jews. If you go after everyone that doesn’t sing hatikva then you’ll be shutting out many people that support jews all over, no matter where they liveJuly 23, 2021 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1994171
> how the owners lived at home
that sounds like overreach, but what about a hashgaha accountant certifying store and school business practices?July 23, 2021 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1994199
@AAQ, “what about a hashgaha accountant certifying store and school business practices?”
Avi Weiss started one that did that and it was a resounding flopJuly 25, 2021 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1994379ParticipantParticipant
some posters understand the justification of removing the hechsher is that in some level Ben & Jerry is unkosher. but it’s really far simpler. the hashgacha is not conducting business with anti Israels. the end.July 25, 2021 8:27 am at 8:27 am #1994382
Common, what there were no takers? Sad. But whole ice cream issue is not a joke. The issue is whether other american businesses will follow in the political environment that supports it. Seems like many progressive companies are under pressure, and they feel that feds will not create problems. In unrelated news, russkies are threatening to upgrade Syrian air defense, after reportedly talking to US and getting a feeling that US will not get involved in supporting Israeli raids there.July 25, 2021 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1994405
@AAQ, “what there were no takers? Sad. ” I guess that is in the eyes of the beholder.
On the ice cream issue “The issue is whether other american businesses will follow in the political environment that supports it.” Doubt it, Unilever stock lost 10% of its value since the Ben and Jerrys annoucement because they stand a good chance that the stock will get dumped by the 32 States in response to anti BDS laws.July 25, 2021 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1994471
Coffee Addict: Yasher Koach
If non-essential companies boycott parts of the State of Israel or the entire State, even, no one should care. Losing B&J’s in no loss at all.
Unless you’re a theological zionist.July 25, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1994484
You know that’s Hebrew, right?
ישר (translated means straight) כח (translated means strength)July 26, 2021 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1994604
CA, it’s usage is Yiddish. It isn’t utilized in Modern Hebrew. Furthermore, its roots is Amaraic, not Hebrew.July 26, 2021 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1994644rationalParticipant
יישר כחך is a common Hebrew expression. For those of Eastern European ancestry, it is pronounced ישר כויח , but they are one and the same. It’s always amusing to see people claim linguistic knowledge that they don’t possess.July 26, 2021 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1994648GadolhadorahParticipant
Just go with the modern flow among the yungerleit who use the idiomatic “Yasher koach!” as a verbal “thumbs up” which more often than not is swallowed as a single sound “YassShhhKOICh. The more intriguing question is how many recipients immediately respond with a heartfelt “Baruch Tihiyheeyeh” which a less modernishe yid might translate colloquially as “Back atcha!”July 26, 2021 11:09 am at 11:09 am #1994689
We say in yiddish boruch dir on yashkoach.July 27, 2021 11:09 am at 11:09 am #1994932Avi KParticipant
They are obligated by a contract. Their hands are tied unless they want a hefty breach of contract suit. Keeping one’s word is also a Jewish value. As minhag hamedina it would probably also be binding halachically.July 27, 2021 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1994987
Avi K, if the trust is kost, the contract is void.
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