Poll: is general Flynn innocent?

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  • #1858517
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    What do you have to say? Was the whole thing made up just to get to trump?

    FLYNN FREE: Case Against General Michael Flynn BEING DROPPED

    Who should be held accountable and to what extent?

    #1858544
    Joseph
    Participant

    General Flynn was exonerated today.

    Congratulations.

    It’s time to lock up the dirty cops.

    #1858545
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A person does not plead guilty when he is innocent but he might be covering for someone.

    #1858561
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    There can not be a poll. Nobody has an independent opinion of him. He took a bullet for the president, and now he is not useful for any investigations. One who thinks highly of the president will proclaim innocence and blame the investigators and all seekers of truth. (Yes, this really happens all the time now.) One who does not support the president knows that no one in the the administration ever spoke truthfully to the FBI.

    #1858563
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Reb E- they do when their son has been threatened harm if they don’t.

    #1858567
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    How do you know?

    I can give you numerous reasons why someone would!

    Let’s start with just 1

    They threatened him

    We’re talking about people that have an ax to grind against trump and this was how they started

    #1858577
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    They threatened to go after his son. The agents who did the investigation found nothing. Their notes state that their purpose was to get into the White House, not inform Flynn that he was entitled to an attorney and trick him into a false statement

    #1858587
    unommin
    Participant

    Crooked cops. It’s Soviet-style. If they did this to him, can you imagine what they could do to you?

    #1858593
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If Flynn had nothing to hide why did he lie to the FBI and the VP about talking to the Russians related to the lifting of the ssnctions imposed by Obama? He might have violated the Logan Act, a private citizen communicating on behalf of the US with a foreign official.

    #1858619
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why was he fired?

    #1858628
    Joseph
    Participant

    President-Elect transitional teams always are in contact with foreign governments.

    Furthermore, incoming administration’s transitional team are paid for by the US government and are effectively government officials. And may so act.

    #1858636
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, if justified, why lie about it and why get fired?

    #1858680
    Milhouse
    Participant

    RE, don’t be an idiot. It is extremely common for people to plead guilty to crimes they did not commit. It is literally maasim bechol yom. If you are offered a plea bargain, and the penalty you will have to pay is not much more (or often even less) than it would cost you — in money, time, and agmas nefesh — to defend yourself, your lawyer will advise you to take the deal, even if it means giving a false allocution, rather than risk being falsely convicted.

    I personally know someone who served three years for a burglary he did not commit, because his public defender and his parents persuaded him to plead guilty rather than risk conviction at trial and a much harsher sentence. Decades later he now regrets it, but it’s too late.

    In Flynn’s case we now know that there could not have been a crime, because there was no legitimate investigation to which his statement could be material. Therefore even if he had deliberately lied he would be innocent. But in fact he didn’t lie.

    First of all, we don’t know exactly what he said, because the FBI, as a matter of policy, never records interviews and the only record is a written summary the agents prepare afterwards. It is very easy for them to lie, or to forget or misunderstand, and whatever they write down is now the record. This is a huge problem, it’s inherently corrupt, and it’s unbelievable that it hasn’t been reformed.

    Second, he was deliberately not told that this was a formal interview; he was led to believe it was a casual conversation to do with handling the transition. So he was not on notice that he had to be exact about everything he said. He had had hundreds of phone calls with various people; he could hardly be expected to recall every detail of every call he made, weeks later, without even a reason to try hard to remember.

    Third, the agents themselves wrote that they did not believe he was trying to mislead them. The corrupt criminal FBI ignored that.

    Fourth, his lawyers had a huge conflict of interest, which they did not disclose to him or to the court. They persuaded him that he had in fact committed a crime, by not saying the exact truth to the agents. Also they were responsible for preparing his and his son’s foreign agent registrations, so any error was their fault, so they needed him to plead guilty so as not to attract blame themselves.

    Finally, the secret deal not to charge his son, in exchange for his guilty plea, was illegal. The law requires all inducements offered for a guilty plea to be disclosed to the judge, but they told him to hide this. That’s a crime.

    For all these reasons, Flynn is a completely innocent man, and what was done to him was criminal. Those responsible need to be charged themselves and should suffer what they put him through. But I don’t trust the DOJ to do that. They will let their criminal colleagues off, just as they have done so many times. It’s disgusting.

    #1858638
    charliehall
    Participant

    Flynn DID make false statements. Remember that the reason he was fired was that he lied to Pence and Pence threatened edited to Trump if Flynn wasn’t canned. Pence probably didn’t realize that Trump himself was a massive liar like he had never encountered before.

    And we forget that Flynn was an unregistered foreign agent for Turkey, which is also a crime.

    #1858683
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Oh, and the Logan Act?! Give me a break. Nobody takes that seriously. It is almost certainly unconstitutional, which is why no prosecutor has ever dared charge anyone with it, because the first time a judge gets a look at it it will be struck down.

    #1858695
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    It is utterly inconsistent with Torah to espouse political views that are found on the modern political left. If one is such, or if he argues the point, by definition he is estranged from a true comprehension of the Torah.

    #1858709
    Ed in Miani
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer: General Flynn (a three-star general) was bankrupted by legal fees paid to try to defend himself. He lost his house. Then he was threatened by Government prosecutors: Either plead guilty or we will go after your son.
    What would you do, Reb, if the Government did that to you???????
    The Logan Act: The Logan Act was passed in 1799. No one has ever been found guilty of violating the Logan Act. And no one has even been charged with violating the Logan Act since before the Civil War (1861-65). Logan Act maybe unconstitutional due to vagueness.

    Finally, even if Flynn did lie to the Vice President, that is no crime.

    #1858723
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    He is “innocent” just like the Trumpkopf was “100 percent exonerated” by the Mueller Report and “Chris Christie and his political hacks did not violate the technical terms of the Federal fraud statute in the shutdown of the GW Bridge. Flynn repeatedly lied or misled everyone from the VP to the investigators but the prosecutors failed to obtain their indictment correctly under DOJ guidelines.
    “Innocent”, no. “Lucky” yes.
    There is a big difference between have a charge thrown out based on technical violations inappropriate behavior by prosecutors as was the case with Flynn That feature of our criminal justice system works to protect those on the fringes of our political system just as it hopefully does to everyday citizens.

    #1858726
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Why was he fired?“

    Because he was under an investigation (albeit uncalled for)

    #1858750
    akuperma
    Participant

    He was a general, then he became a politician (clearly guilty of that), and had politically incorrect view (also a serious crime as least as far as the “deep state” civil servants are concerned, and worst of all he was a known associate of the devil incarnate (as any Democrat will tell you). Clearly guilty of all three counts.

    #1858754
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Katanhatorah., do you know how to read and comprehend ?
    Facts
    1. The agents investigating Flynn found no wrongdoing
    2. The FBI illegally bugged Flynn’s conversation with the
    Russian ambassador so they knew what was said was
    not a problem before interviewing Flynn
    3. The agents handwritten notes document that the agents
    were going to close the case when Comey told them to
    keep it open for the purpose of trying to trick Flynn into
    a misstatement.
    4. Obama’s FBI and DOJ committed. numerous civil rights
    violations:
    1. The US Attorney Van Zark ( I think that’s his name)
    failed to turn over to the court and the defense all of
    the documentation that came to light last week
    2. There was no need for the meeting with Flynn as the
    FBI already had the transcript
    3. As Comey himself admits, the FBI failed to follow
    protocol by not notifying the White House attorneys
    of the meeting and by telling
    Flynn that he didn’t need an attorney as it was just a
    friendly conversation.
    4. Ultimately Flynn said he lied. But that was only after
    relentless prosecution that cost him his reputation,
    his house, and assets to pay the mounting legal
    bills and being threatened that they would go after
    his son.

    #1858767
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    It was Peter Strzock who kept the investigation open, not Comey. There are emails between Strzok and Lisa Paige( his girl friend and an FBI agent ) whose emails stated that it was their intention to stop Trump from being elected.
    There was nothing out of the ordinary in an incoming national security advisor meeting with the Russian ambassador

    #1858814
    Milhouse
    Participant

    GH, Flynn is not only completely innocent, but a far better person than you are. The same applies to Hall. I would take Flynn over you in any situation.

    The worst thing is that Flynn wasn’t even a target himself. The only reason these criminals destroyed him was that he was an obstacle to their conspiracy against the President, so they had to remove him. They deliberately set him up and took him out, so they would have a clear field to undermine their boss the President, to whom they owed loyalty.

    Edited. Nu?

    #1858856
    MosheFromMidwood
    Participant

    Why not just read the transcripts instead speculating on this? As for Bridgegate, it was a unanimous Supreme Court decision, which means even the far-left liberals could not justify upholding these convictions. So unless commenters know the law better than the Supremes, I think they should abide by the decision

    #1858855
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Nu? My point is that it’s one thing to be destroyed because you have enemies. Someone hates you so he is out to get you. That makes sense. It’s much worse when the person who destroys you has nothing against you; it’s not personal, you’re just standing between him and his target, so he destroys you. That way it doesn’t even mean anything.

    #1858870
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Moshefrommidwood, with regards to Bridgegate. What those 2 people did was despicable and an abuse of power but was not a felony under Federal law. Accusing them of fraud to get them into Federal court was a big stretch by Obama’s DOJ . Because there was no scheme to obtain money or property, the Court ruled that the defendants could not have violated Federal fraud laws.

    #1858879
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Moshe,
    The Supreme Court did say that it was corruption, and a bunch of other evil concepts. They could not understand why it was punishable by the courts. Getting elected has become a right, and one may lose that right and get voted out of office. Political crimes is a reason to not sit in jail.

    #1858886
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Someone,
    It is complete ignorance of Torah to compare it or align with or against any political views. A committed Jew takes his own world views and refines them by the heat of the Fire of Torah. To think Torah is too narrow for an political view, is to value worldliness over Torah.

    WHERE IS JOSEPH?

    #1858890
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Moshe, the difference is that in Bridgegate the Supreme Court said yes, this was a corrupt act, but it wasn’t a crime, or at least it wasn’t the crime they were convicted of. That doesn’t vindicate them, it just means they’re merely dirty rather than criminal. Whereas with Flynn the evidence is that he was truly innocent.

    #1859046
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    n0mesorah, you’re quite mistaken. As before, your username says it all.

    #1859270
    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    That’s not true, very very not true. The federal government has the way to go after you and twist you into a pretzel. They made him sell his house and they bankrupted him just so that he could pay his attorneys.

    The fact is that he is innocent as has been said all along. It was a setup, just as the Democrats admitted! The Justice Department was being run by dirty cops!

    Furthermore, if you knew anything about this case, you would know that the reason he fell on the sword was because they were going to go after his son for another false charge. any normal parent would do that! If you don’t understand that you clearly are not normal.

    #1859279
    Joseph
    Participant

    As New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler famously said, “a grand jury would ‘indict a ham sandwich,’ if that’s what the prosecutor wanted.”

    #1859295
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Someone,
    You mean to say a worldview can reach further than the Torah?

    #1859300
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The president said at that time that Flynn was fired for lying to the VP. CBS News Dec 2, 2017

    #1859325
    charliehall
    Participant

    “It is utterly inconsistent with Torah to espouse political views that are found on the modern political left. ”

    Providing generous support for the poor is mandated in Yerushalmi Peah and codified as binding halahchah on all communities by Rambam. That is political left today.

    Bava Metzia and Chosen Mishpat describe some pretty draconian regulation of businesses. That is political left today.

    Next Shabbat we will hear about shemittah and yovel. That is much further left than even today’s political left would go today.

    And our communal leaders have always advocated for governmental support for our communities’ needs. Also political left.

    Not everything the political left supports today is consistent with Torah, but much of the political right today would destroy all of this.

    #1859326
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The same applies to Hall.”

    I have never lied to a Vice President.

    I have never lied to the FBI.

    I have never been an agent for a hostile foreign government, much less an illegally unregistered one.

    If you think that these things that Flynn did make him a better person than me I am proud to be in your doghouse.

    #1859342
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Yes, he is a far better person than you are. And by the way, Turkey is not a hostile government. At least not yet. Technically it’s still an official ally.

    #1859347
    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: He’s been reading too much DailyKos and has internalized hard left politics as his normal.

    #1860091
    huju
    Participant

    General Flynn thought he was guilty when he twice pled guilty.

    #1860125
    Joseph
    Participant

    huju:

    Innocent people, who know they’re innocent, plead guilty all the time in the American “justice” system. It is a regular occurrence. Tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans are in jail, convicted of things they didn’t do.

    Smart lawyers advise to plead guilty to charges one is innocent of to avoid being convicted, as well over 90% of federal trials end in conviction. State trials are not much different. Indeed, only 2% of cases even go to trial, as so many plead rather than roll the dice.

    Even if innocent.

    #1860159
    Milhouse
    Participant

    No, huju, when General Flynn pleaded guilty he did not think he was actually guilty. And if he did at one point think so, it was only because he was given bad legal advice.

    #1860267
    huju
    Participant

    To Milhouse: Is KoolAid kosher?

    #1860314
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Yes, it is. What’s that got to do with the price of fish in China? I stated a fact. You’re not entitled to your own.

    #1860320
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Huju didn’t care if koolaid was kosher 4 years ago, he still drank it

    #1860542
    charliehall
    Participant

    So now you are defending the anti-Semite dictator Erdogan, whom Flynn illegally worked for. Beautiful.

    #1860543
    charliehall
    Participant

    Actually I have been banned for life from Dailykos for objecting to the hard left too stridently.

    #1860544
    charliehall
    Participant

    He also fessed up to lying to Vice President Pence.

    Some supposedly frum folks here have forgotten the commandment about bearing false witness.

    #1860576
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Here comes Hall the liar. Nobody has said one word in defense of Erdogan. And not only did Flynn not admit lying to Pence, doing so would not have been an offense. It certainly wouldn’t have been false witness.

    #1860569
    Joseph
    Participant

    Hall: Bearing false witness only refers to under court testimony. Furthermore, please advise where in the Torah or S”A there’s a halahcic prohibition against lying. Suppose you lied to another professor in your university when you told him that you ate cherrios for breakfast whereas you are aware that in fact you had rice crispies for breakfast. Please specifically identify which, if any, halachic prohibition you unambiguously violated.

    #1860655
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Joseph,
    If we would hold politics to the Light Of Torah, every politician you (or just about anyone) approve of, is sorely lacking. But if you can, please point me to the basics. Where does the parsha or sugya of politics start in Torah? [I am attempting to clear up the conversation muddling that happens when the Torah is inserted into political conversations.

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