September 15, 2022 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2124720Jewish12345Participant
Being that YU has it all wrong for years please say agree that this club idea would of been predicted or that it’s not their fault and that this would of never happened and it’s a shock for you to hear that this club was formed.September 15, 2022 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #2125039smerelParticipant
There is no way they could have known when they amended their charter from religious to educational that this would have been the outcome but they should have realized that there would be consequences from doing so.
I certainly don’t their amending their charter from religious to educational as worse than a mosod that bends the rules for government funds. Not that all or most mosdos do ch’v but no reason to single out YU in this regard.
As far as the old complaints about YU graduate schools law having toeva groups, Touro law also very clearly gives their affiliation with toeva groups on their website and no one says a word. Realistically speaking there is a limit how much you can fight the supreme rights that liberals have given toeva groups which allows them to marginalize the rights of everyone else. If you vote for pro toeva candidates you are not much more innocent than YUSeptember 15, 2022 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #2125042akupermaParticipant
If YU wishes its “frum” schools (YU College and Stern, as opposed to ones open to goyim and frei “Jews” such as Cardozo) to be limited to Shomeri Mitsvos, they have to say so clearly, and understand that the government is likely to be reluctant to give them money (including tax exemptions), and employers, and graduate schools, will be biased against the alumni. If YU has successfully limited to school to Shomrei Mitsvos, they should win the current case (when it finally is fully litigated), but the state could revoke accreditation as well as tax exemption.
And if the government can tell Yeshiva, or any yeshiva, that observance of law takes precedence over religious teachings, you have effectively repealed the 1st amendment. Could a synagogue or mosque be punished for using a language other than English, or refusing to serve American cuisine such as port? Could politically incorrect religious institutions lose tax exemption status? If schools fail to meat a “woke” test, can they lose accreditation. This is a test case, with very high stakes as to whether America will continue its tradition of “Freedom of religion” which goes back to the 18th century and has become the best example of American “exceptionalism”, or whether the US will shift its approach to religion to the minimialist toleration of “freedom from religion”.September 15, 2022 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2125022user176Participant
Would have.September 15, 2022 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2125125Reb EliezerParticipant
You cannot allow the club for the law school but not for the yeshiva.September 15, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2125145AviraDeArahParticipant
Touro does not show support of toeva groups on its website. It has a disclaimer at the bottom saying that they don’t discriminate based on XYZ and it includes “orientation” but that’s the extent of it.
Also, touro does not claim to be a Yeshiva.September 15, 2022 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2125149
How about putting a dorm in Boro Park and see who stays.
RebE, I think, these are different organizations. Note that some other yeshivot register in a similar way, judging that they publish their graduation statistics as required by Ed. Dept, see another thread. So, theoretically, a similar club can be attempted, h’v, in other places, unless YU wins the case, BEH.September 15, 2022 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2125150
We live in a complicated world; and no man is an island, even of they are an island like YU … You get some entanglements. Is a threat of some marginal club worse than some other monkey business currently in the news, like getting paid for transportation “regardless of distance to school” and transportation contracts that the state wants to oversee for some reason, according to some questionable reporting. You can’t have an absolutist position on one tiny issue. Need to look at benefits and shortcomings of the institution as a whole.September 15, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2125256Reb EliezerParticipant
The above is the clubs argument:
The club argued that Yeshiva’s plea to the Supreme Court was premature, also noting the university already has recognized a gay pride club at its law school.September 16, 2022 2:08 am at 2:08 am #2125292maskildoreshParticipant
Those above arguing to equivocate cheating to get government money (which is wrong, of course), with allowing a pride club, is a fallacious argument .
It’s like saying that it’s ok to allow the parking lot of your shul to be open on shabbos becuase anyways people talk about business by the kiddish and sometimes forget and move Miktza.
YU has made choices that have led down the path to where they are today. Many individuals who are possessed of integrity found it necessary to leave the institution at various steps along the way. Others play the ostrich game, or make distinctions between various parts of the institution, etc.
One wonders how strident their stance against gays would be if it was the CDC and Dr. Fauci who was against gays, rather than merely the Torah.September 16, 2022 8:41 am at 8:41 am #2125305nishtdayngesheftParticipant
“like getting paid for transportation “regardless of distance to school”
That’s actually the law in NYS outside of NYC. That transpiration is provided regardless of distance.September 16, 2022 9:12 am at 9:12 am #2125314smerelParticipant
>>>Those above arguing to equivocate cheating to get government money (which is wrong, of course), with allowing a pride club, is a fallacious argument .
Right. You can easily argue that a mosod cheating is worse. YU in itself does not support the toeva club. They are being bullied by it to allow the baaley toeva to act. A mosod that cheats is personally doing itSeptember 16, 2022 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2125353Yserbius123Participant
As has been mentioned a million times on this subject, Rav JB Soleveitchik ZT”L himself criticized YU for putting themselves into a position where the government can decide what their morals and ethics should be.September 16, 2022 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2125355
nisht > That’s actually the law in NYS outside of NYC.
There is a nasty follow-up to NYT article by a so-called “rights organization” describing the plight of pupils in a majority-Jewish district. They don’t mention “Jews”, they simply explain how “white people” oppress the “not English-speaking people” (sic!). Funniest numbers there is that average district spends – gasp – $26K per pupil, while these poor souls get “only” $23K and, thus, are failing schools in huge numbers. Still, some of their allegations might have regel l’davar. They are admitting that transportation and textbooks to all students are legal, but they hint that the district increased eligibility – possibly in a legal way, as you say. They also imply that there is something funny going on with contracts given to the bus companies. While the source is totally treif and manipulates numbers even worse than NYT article, they obviously have some information that this is based on.September 16, 2022 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2125363
maskil > is a fallacious argument .
I agree. I did not mean that one can do an aveira because someone else did. I am saying these things are connected: we are trying to establish a Jewish chinuch system in a challenging environment. Both systems are dealing with the same issue – accept some government support and avoid demands we do not like. As we use roads and bridges and, hopefully, pay taxes, everyone has to deal with that.
So, my point is – different approaches choose different ways to deal with the issue and have different population they address. Each of them has their own challenges. No reason to denigrate another group for having an issue to deal with. Just ask a question – are they helping some people, to which extent. You will find out that there are pepole who benefit by going to YU instead of Penn State, to Touro instead of Podunk U, and to Vizhnitz yeshiva instead of Brooklyn high.September 16, 2022 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2125451ujmParticipant
YU is not a Jewish institution. It is anti-Jewish.September 18, 2022 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2125922Baby SquirrelParticipant
Yeshiva University is disgusting and not Jewish.September 18, 2022 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2125967
how many account do you have parroting same statements and why are mod asleep at the wheel?!
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