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I figured it out. I think I got the answer.
The question is an old question, and it is: Why are girls so adamant that they marry someone who is going to learn in kollel, as opposed to someone who already did that learning. So for example, why would you marry the guy who is 22 and will learn for 3 years, but not the guy who is 25 and already learned those 3 years.
Some have argued that it is valuable to “start you marriage with that commitment to Torah.” I don’t think this is a very good answer. Even while I might concede there is some benefit to being in kollel together as far as appreciating Torah, I would need more clarification on what that benefit is, and crucially–why that benefit is so large that it plays such a central role in who you are willing to marry.
But, I think I have a better theory now. It requires some premises, which I will lay out.
Here is a kasha and teirutz:
Kasha: How do kollel couples relate to each other properly as a couple, when the husband is learning all day, and the wife has a career? How can the wife see the husband as her provider when in fact she is the provider?
Teirutz: Simply by changing the values of the marriage, and what is the primary thing that must be provided. That is, by viewing Torah as the good which needs to be provided to the marital unit, the husband once again becomes the provider, and the money-making has only an auxiliary role. I think this is a good answer.
If so, then that is why the girls need a guy who is going to learn after the marriage. Because they need to seem him “bringing home the bacon” in order to view him as their provider of bacon. And the bacon they want is Torah.
Agree?
Chas vechalila to call the Torah bacon. If you have to give a metaphor, it should be, l’havdil, kemach.
My husband and I like the sevara.
Popa, you’re putting a very positive spin on it, but I don’t think that they’re being so profound.
If I were to put a positive spin on it, I would say that it’s simply because she wants the z’chus of financially supporting his learning. My cynical side tells me that it’s so she can boast of her husband in kollel (which isn’t the worst thing someone can boast about).
There’s probably some truth to both (maybe even all three).
If I were to put a positive spin on it, I would say that it’s simply because she wants the z’chus of financially supporting his learning. My cynical side tells me that it’s so she can boast of her husband in kollel (which isn’t the worst thing someone can boast about).
Silly girls should support other girls’ husbands in Kollel.
Yes, I agree that it’s immaturity, that’s why it’s the cynical side of me that believes it (and the optimistic side of me which says that even when it’s a factor, it’s not the only factor).
As far as wondering why the benefit is so large as to play such a central role, I think the feeling is that it does set the tone for their lifetime together, both regarding a Torahdik’e home (your “wrong” reason), and her commitment to supporting his learning throughout their marriage.
There’s another, probably more correct reason, although, similar to your “right” reason, I don’t know if it’s actually part of the thought process. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/working-and-learning#post-425912
It is utterly absurd to put DYs reason down to immaturity. It comes from the most basic human need, the need to feel important. The girl who boasts about her husband in kollel is no more immature than the girl who boasts about how smart her baby is for saying NO to carrots, or some other stupidity. No more immature than the grandma on the bus who forces you to look at her beautiful grandchildren (are those your grandchildren or their dogs, lady?). No more immature than popa trying to make everyone laugh (okay, maybe that actually is immature). No more immature than telling the gabbai to call you up as harav or ben harav instead of Reb.
The question then becomes how did saying my husband is in kollel become something that makes a girl feel important? The answer is obvious.
Oh, life decisions. Like looking for yichus in a shidduch, picking a yeshiva, which neighborhood to live in, which school to send your kids to, what car to drive, which career and firm you go into, etc, etc?
Its called seeking prestige, and yes, most people make most of their life decisions based on it. So either you shatz up the whole world as naarish, which redefines naarish as normal, or actually find something naarish about it (and not just about wanting to be important).
And if you are wondering why I am so passionate about this, its because I just got engaged to a top bachur who is going to be learning for longer than your chosson, nananakooshkoosh : p
Our girls have been educated to feel proud if their husband is a serious ben Torah, instead of being proud if their husband is a successful businessman.
Maybe it is not genuine or deep for everyone, but I think that overall it is a positive thing.
Ashreinu.
Our girls have been educated to feel proud if their husband is a serious ben Torah, instead of being proud if their husband is a successful businessman.
What does that have to do with Kollel?
Meaning what difference does it make to being a Ben Torah if they learn 5 years before getting married at 27 or five years afterwards getting married at 22? (Popa’s question).
Besides, as I have said in the past, the Baal Habatim in my area are known to be Talmidei Chachamim, and are more “Beni Torah” than the local Kollel members in many aspects (and that does not disparage the Kollel. They just aren’t on the same level).
After dating many girls like that, one of them explained her reasoning to me. She just wants someone who is available to eat lunch with and someone who could be home early every night.
I don’t know if that applies to every girl (I hope not).
Congratulations, herr rabbiner dr. You found a true naarishe reason.
Yep unless you can tell me how having someone in the house with you contributes to your sense of self, I will contend that it is a juvenile insecurity.
Doesn’t the girl in question have a job? How can she be home for lunch every day?
I definitely think supper should be eaten together. But that can happen away from kollel as well.
It’s a way of knowing that your husband really loves Torah. I don’t see why Torah can’t be part of a boy’s life if they are working as well, but the truth is that from my experiences in shidduchim, finding boys who are serious about Torah as well as supporting a family is like finding a black grain of sand. They’re definitely out there, but if you decide to marry a kollel boy, it’s a lot easier to find someone who loves Torah.
T613t,
Yes, that was my most recently posted reason. Maybe it really is part of the thought process.
Popa, as you wrote, the practical difference is what you both do that first year of marriage, but I disagree with the reason given in your “terutz”.
Let’s assume that the net years of learning will not end up any different. Regardless, the atmosphere of that first year of marriage is different. When your head is filled with Torah and Kedusha, it is not the same as when it is filled with work and, lihavdil, Torah, even though this is the reality for most men.
So I can understand why a young woman would *prefer* to start off her marriage with that atmosphere of Torah and Kedusha rather than starting off with work and, lihavdil, Torah.
HaKatan,
Popa’s question was only why this is so central, not why it’s preferable.
My response (to that specific point) was that it sets the tone for the entire marriage.
Yep unless you can tell me how having someone in the house with you contributes to your sense of self, I will contend that it is a juvenile insecurity.
Ironically, since we’re dealing with juveniles, it’s not a na’arish’e reason.
GAW,What does that have to do with Kollel?
See my link above. (Don’t forget, you asked for a relationship, not a certainty.)
DY: 23 year olds (and 18 year olds) are not “juvenilles”.
My point was that, unlike Popa’s position, it’s not that she needs to see him “providing” Torah, but rather that their marriage atmosphere will be different that year if he is learning in kollel during that year, as opposed to if he already did that learning in prior years.
HaKatan: That’s what I don’t get. If a person learns Torah while working, it also affects the atmosphere in the home.
It’s easier to establish the centrality of learning when it is exclusive.
Popa, yes, that was my point to HaKatan.
As far as your “right” reason, why is his “taking home the bacon” as an exclusively spiritual (or intangible, if you will) contribution more conducive to the proper husband/wife relationship than if he were bringing home a paycheck?
Also, my maskana (so far) is actually that if guy is not currently learning full time and/or does not plan to do so for a few years after marriage, he is not looked at in the same vein as someone who is/will.
I’ve heard the theory that if a guy is working and learning, he’s a better bet than a guy who is currently just learning, but plans on working soon after marriage. The sevara is that the first guy is actually keeping sedorim even though he has tirdas haparnassah, and the second type hasn’t proved it; maybe when he leaves yeshiva he’ll hardly crack a sefer.
The problem with this in practice is, as I think we agree, that most serious learners stay in yeshiva full time while they’re bochurim.
Popa:
It seems clear that a shana rishona can have a significant part in shaping a marriage.
Given this:
If a person will be learning that first year then, as I wrote earlier, their marriage atmosphere will be different and elevated that year. And because it is the first year of marriage, this elevated level of the first year will significantly shape the rest of the marriage, even after the learning switches to part-time.
I’m not saying that’s the only way it can be done nor even that it is the best, all things considered, for all people.
But it’s (very) good enough [to the point] that, yes, I can see it being a deal-breaker for some people, and for this reason and not for yours, with all due respect.
Torah613:
Of course, any learning has a positive impact on any marriage. But full-time learning is not comparable to part-time learning, and year one of marriage is not comparable to years two and on.
Popa,
Ok, so why not a part time learner? You may have hit upon something with the seminary influence. Maybe rather than convincing them that learning is “the most important provision that needs to be provided for the family”, they convinced them that they need to marry a guy who will learn full time. That would be a much simpler and more direct answer to your shailah.
To respond to your point to HaKatan, there are other deal breakers as well, who says this one is more important than those?
As it is taught in seminaries, it is better to live as one than to live as two together and working.
This may be the least economically sound theory since 9/9/9. Hint: fungible and non-fungible goods cannot be interchanged or hold the same value, at least not for long. At any rate, the empirical answer is staring you in the face: girls want to be able to say that they are marrying a learner. They are fed this view by their high schools, seminaries, friends, and parents. Notice that boys are grouped by shadchanim not by their past or present, but their future: in your hypothetical, the shadchan would put the 25-year-old in the “earner” pile and the 22-year-old in the “learner” pile, despite the same number of years in learning. This explains the decision-making process made by the vast majority of girls, either explicitly or behind the scenes, in the sense that they won’t even be redt to the 25-year-old earner in your hypothetical.
So maybe the question really is, why would a 19 year old girl prefer a 22 year old boy to a 25 year old boy.
You need to stop sniffing your cologne
Popa, I believe this is a common sentiment, like it or not.
As I wrote, “yes, I can see it being a deal-breaker for some people, and for [my above] reason…”
Starting a marriage in the most optimal way for them, seems like it should rank pretty high on the list for some people, to the point that they’d rather first consider other potential mates with whom they would be able to start off their marriage as optimally as possible.
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