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Would it still be most appropriate for a Ben Torah to dress in a white shirt and suit jacket after he is no longer in Yeshiva and starts working, for work dress and everyday dressing?
Would it still be most appropriate for a Ben Torah to dress in a white shirt and suit jacket after he is no longer in Yeshiva and starts working, for work dress and everyday dressing?
It would be appropriate for him to wear whatever clothing is appropriate for the job.
If he’s an office worker — it depends on the office.
If he’s a plumber or a farmer — I wouldn’t advise it.
If he’s a lifeguard — definitely not.
The Wolf
I work in an office, in IT, between non-Jews (and a handful of chiloni Israelis), in the UK.
For me, whenever I leave the neighborhood, I go ‘undercover’. Just a plain simple conservative shirt – white, blue or brown – and neat pants, a black/blue sweater and a winter coat (more like a sort of skiing coat), and a baseball cap over my kippah. Haven’t experienced much antisemitism here, really, but I just don’t want to stand out too much (and become a target for harassment or common crime). At work, I do go around with kippah all day.
Inside the neighborhood I dress ‘frum’…
I’m probably the only person wearing a shtreimel on shabbos who then wears a red-and-black skiing coat and baseball cap to work on Sunday morning (I work Israeli days, with Israeli customers). Oh well, I’ve always been unique…
Naisberg your not a legit poster, your profile doesn’t come up.LOl;) oneofmany, is this another one??
If you want to have some variety in your dress outfits, here is what my brother did after he left. He wore polo shirts or a button down with stripes going down. He now has this new style where his button down shirts have a different pattern by the colar and cuffs. They look really cool and stylish, yet still considered “yeshivish”. Shabbat is of course black and white.
Someone who is not in the military is prohibitted to wear a military uniform. Simalarly someone not in yeshiva is prohibited to wear the Yesivah uniform.
Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear –
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps
more, there’s a way to change your screen name from the user name you registered with. Once you do that, if a person doesn’t know your real user name, they can’t access your profile. There are issues with this, so this feature isn’t publicized. Naisberg is probably an old poster who changed names, or a reincarnation of an old poster who knows the tricks.
“Someone who is not in the military is prohibitted to wear a military uniform. Simalarly someone not in yeshiva is prohibited to wear the Yesivah uniform.”
That is without doubt, without nny single doubt, the most ridiculous thing anyone ever said here.
So you’re saying the tens of working chareidim I know around Yerushalayim, Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer, Beit Shemesh and Gateshead, should all stop wearing white shirts and start wearing colored shirts, and stop wearing hats and put on baseball caps instead, because they are not in yeshiva?
Could you give me a single source of a single rav who supports such an idea?
CG, I thought the UK is Gan Eden? What’s this about going “undercover”. BTW, by wearing a baseball cap aren’t you targeting yourself for anti-American types? BTW, red is a problem (Rema Yoreh Deah 178:1) although Rav Yitzchak Elchana Spector is meikal where there is no clear Goyish custom on this (Darchei Teshuva there subsection 16). I do not know if this heter applies to the UK where red is definitely a national color.
I don’t understand what -assuming there is no pikuach nefesh or work uniform- possible reason there might be to not wear dark pants, white shirt, jacket and a hat once one has left a Torah learning institution. Do you stop being a ben-Torah after you’ve left Yeshivah?
“I’m probably the only person wearing a shtreimel on shabbos who then wears a red-and-black skiing coat and baseball cap to work on Sunday morning (I work Israeli days, with Israeli customers). Oh well, I’ve always been unique…”
someone apparently hasn’t been to bklyn in a loooonnngggg time
I am not the TCG , but I have been to Europe a few times including the UK
I really do like to visit Europe and there is much yiddishkite there especially in England and France. England is really cool and a must visit for anyone who can.
I found it sort of cool hearing people lain the torah with a British accent.
However you dont totally feel safe as a JEW there. Shuls there have Jersey barriers blocking the Shuls. many have 24/7 Security Guards
Many of them you cant go to unless you register BEFORE Shabbos so you can enter on Shabbos (They want to know everyone who enters)
@Avi K: “BTW, by wearing a baseball cap aren’t you targeting yourself for anti-American types?”
Actually, it’s a baseball cap of the USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76). Something I consider quite acceptable for a frum yid to wear. I wear it to show my support and gratitude to the US, including, specifically, its armed forces, to whom we owe quite a lot.
@ajk; Actually, I have never been to the Americas at all…
Avi K: Assering red is a misreading of that Rama.
possible reason there might be to not wear dark pants, white shirt, jacket and a hat once one has left a Torah learning institution.
Practicality.
Even if there is no set uniform, certain jobs are done far easier without the garb mentioned above. Plumbers, appliance repair, bicycle messenger, lifeguard, mason, carpenter, veterinarian, etc. all come to mind.
Then, there is also the issue of “office culture.” A person may not want to “stick out” in the office by wearing a white shirt, tie and slacks every day if the office culture dictates casual attire.
The Wolf
Gateshead is not like that – far from it.
Contributing factor maybe is that we don’t have many Muslims/Arabs around here – there are very few in Gateshead, it’s almost exclusively ‘real’ English Geordies. And those there are, aren’t a problem.
Wolf: I assumed the question was asking about when you are not working also, like on sunday.
I don’t know the answer to this question. I still dress like I did in yeshiva, and sometimes I stand out a bit, but I don’t care.
and sometimes I stand out a bit, but I don’t care.
And if it works for you in your situation, then congratulations and all the more power to you. But it may not work for everyone.
The Wolf
TCG
I saw the Shuls with 24/7 Guards in Golders Green (London for outsiders). Ive never been to Gateshead.
I also saw Shuls with Guards in Rome and my inlaws showed me pictures of Shuls in Scandanavia with Guards and Jersey Barriers
Like Derech HaMelech indicated, unless there is a practical or firm reason you cannot dress like a Ben Torah, I would dress with a white shirt, dark pants, jacket, and hat. And even if there is a reason one cannot dress as such while working or other time, I would dress as such whenever I could, such as on off-days, etc.
Sam, ???? means red.
CG, “the real English Geordies” are not a problem? Not even before and after soccer games?
Dash- Your post is reminiscent of the kid whos mother told him “In a second”, who promptly counted to one and then began yelling she lied. Get a grip. A person who remains a ben torah and identifies with bnei torah should, and generally will, continue to dress the part. Obviously, if you’re a plumber or carpenter then circnumstances don’t allow for that.
The Halocho utilizes expression of “Your Shabbos clothing should not resemble your weekday clothing” rather than some expression of keeping an extra set of clothing for Shabbos.
In light of this phrase, and in light of common usage being that Shabbos garb for most people implies a business [lounge] suit & white shirt {& tie & hat}, hence on weekdays I make a point of not wearing a suit & white shirt; Consequently during the week, I wear either a suit with a color shirt, or white shirt with Blazer & pants (& tie & hat}.
To me this Halocho is more significant than some so called yeshivish uniform.
Bnei Torah who are Yeshivish, wear a necktie on Shabbos and not during the week.
147 – and in light of the fact that 99.99% of people whose Torah knowledge I respect (and I would imagine most of those you do too)don’t worry about this, one would wonder about the slight possibility that this is not necessary…
147-It’s feasible to have special shabbos attire, even if the colors are the same.
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