October 17, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #600000twistedParticipant
Does anyone have a credible source for this practice?October 18, 2011 4:10 am at 4:10 am #820284golden momMember
there is many creditable sources for this cant pin point but it is brought down in seforim but u have to make sure u r going to sb who is crediable and r doing it thru torah veiw point and not thru forchun tell or st like that
if u read jewish history story books it mentions it alot the women used to do it in the house and it happened a couple of times were a guyish worker/maid walked in on her and reported her and she was punished for doing witch craftOctober 18, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #820286
actually there are credible people who do it and its not kishuf. i know theres an alte bubbitchka in meah shearim who does it, and i once spoke to someone whos a bukki in these things and he told me its very real. i know i havent brought one single legit source, but all im saying is its not kishuf. neither is chochmas hapartzuf etc.October 18, 2011 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #820287good.jewMember
I’ll bet Popa has a non-cedible sourceOctober 18, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #820288GumBallMember
My parents once had an a”h and so she went 2 a lady near me that shes friends with that new how to take away a”h’s and she did the led thing with the hot water and it shaped into a person and it removed the a”h bh!!October 18, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #820289600 Kilo BearMember
I am sure those who do it have no idea of its source, and it could just be a coincidence that it is done by others for the wrong reasons.
I know a very reliable rov who has some strange way of counteracting the ayin horo that seems to clearly have pagan origins. He doesn’t know that because it was handed down to him over the generations, he doesn’t charge for it, and it is in the geder of people believe it works so it does. I would not ask him to do whatever he does for me, but I would not tell anyone who asks me about him to avoid this if he offers it.October 18, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #820292BaalHaboozeParticipant
What exactly is done? Do you just pour it on the ground? Do you chant any posuk or pizmon?
Never heard of this, but until any explanation with ceredible mekor for this, I think I’ll just stick to the roiteh bendelOctober 18, 2011 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #820294
metrodriver-if you go to a kook doctor once that doesnt mean no-one can have a real degree in medicine. there are people who are real.but youre right in that most people are looking to make a buck.October 18, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #820296
old man- dont you think thats a bit broad. what if R chaim kanievsky would do it? would it still be nonesense? so that means it can be real, you just dont like it. care to explain?October 18, 2011 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #820297yitayningwutParticipant
He holds like the RambamOctober 19, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #820298oyveykidsthesedaysMember
BaalHabooze said: “Never heard of this, but until any explanation with ceredible (sic) mekor for this, I think I’ll just stick to the roiteh bendel”
The apparent implication of your above statement is that there is a credible mekor for using a “roite bindele.” That is half-true. There is a credible mekor which mentions its use, but not in a positive light; the Tosefta in Shabbos 7:1 says that tying a red string around the wrist to ward off ayin hara is prohibited because of darkei Emori.
old man said: “Exotic practices such as these are nonsense, whether they have a “mekor” or not. Defining it as darkei emori, kishuf, etc… is irrelevant. It’s plain nonsense.”
I disagree. If it has a reliable mekor, then it’s not nonsense. If tefillin didn’t have a reliable mekor, it WOULD be nonsense. What is or isn’t nonsense depends on what the Torah says, and whether something has a mekor or not is certainly not “irrelevant.”October 19, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #820299
Here is a credible source for ble ghissen:
The following practices and traditions are associated with the beginning of the new year in German-speaking countries:
Compare to this article from hamodia:
On the other hand, check out tzemach tzedek 38:October 19, 2011 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #820300
The German Christians have the custom of pouring lead and divining futures, also known as blee Gheesen.October 19, 2011 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #820301
it IS brought down by the Tzemach tzedek in OC siman 38, but it’s hard to ignore the obvious German Christian source.October 23, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #820302twistedParticipant
Thank you Jothar. I have been working a long time to break through the “its brought down in the seforim” barrier. In the libraries I frequent, I’ve found the Shu’t Tzemach Tzedek, but nothing arranged by the divisions of SA. My first take on this was it smacks of nichush or kosem, but there is a woman here in EY claiming 6 generations of woman to woman mesorah (most likely back to someone illiterate) and with a hascomo from a gadol. If my gut feeling is correct (5% of the time) this is a shegaga sheyatza milifne hashalit.October 23, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #820303whome123Member
its real and its all kabbala and if a big problem to be. the person its done to it works for but all the ayin hara goes to the person doing it. ive seen it done the lead turns into eyes and swords weird stuff, its real kabbala stuff there are pesukim you say while you do it but most people who do it should not be doing it.October 24, 2011 1:28 am at 1:28 am #820305bein_hasdorimParticipant
I know that the legitimate ones that do “Up Shperchin” are yerushalmi women who have been taught the proper way by
great-great- grandmother passed down mother to daughter, for many generations. There was a famous name whom was known and popular in yerushalayim, I know ehliche people who sent their children to this particular family (woman) but that was over almost 50 years ago, it was a known by practice by the yershalmi’s and if it was any issur of imitating the goyim it would’ve been Assured way back and wouldnt of made it this far.
Though most people who do it today, who cannot trace it back many generations in their family..you must know, like most mekubalim today….(ahem!)
Also most practices the goyim actually took from us, just as most
of christianity, muslims, took their monotheism, customs, (warped versions) and concepts from us.
I heard the tzemach tzedek has a teshuva that it can be done on shabbos for a choleh Mesukan (pikuach nefesh) for it is baduk Umenusa that it helps.
(I can’t verify the that this teshuvha legitimately exists.)October 24, 2011 3:08 am at 3:08 am #820307
Bein Hasedorim, the teshuva of the Tzemach Tzedek is Orach Chaim 38.October 24, 2011 3:29 am at 3:29 am #820308Dr. SeussMember
The goyim stole anything half descent they have, from us. Of course they twisted almost all of it to make it almost unrecognizable.October 24, 2011 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #820309
Did anyone actually read the Tzemach Tzedek in question? He writes he heard about this refuah, and calls it a refuah she’eina badukah. IE, he has no clue about it, and allows it due to lack of more information. If he knew its source he wouldn’t allow it at all.
(unless you believe the Tzemach Tzedek is the nasi hador and is infallible, but that’s for another thread).October 25, 2011 11:38 am at 11:38 am #820310old manParticipant
In response to three questions that I was asked:
1. no difference
3. self-explanatoryOctober 25, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #820311bein_hasdorimParticipant
Thanks Jothar! I heard the opposite, it was used as a haskama.
It’s good to know the truth. I’m Bl’n gonna look it up tonight.
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