Practical Kol Diparush Shailah

Home Forums Bais Medrash Practical Kol Diparush Shailah

Viewing 46 posts - 1 through 46 (of 46 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #609505
    Toi
    Participant

    Recently at a sheva brachos, the following shailah came up:

    There were 60 guests. 45 ate fleishigs, 15 stayed pareve.

    At dessert, after scooping out ice cream into 60 bowls, all identical, it was discovered that one tub of ice cream being served was milchig. Now, there are fifty bowls of pareve ichy fake ice cream, and ten bowls of milchig ice cream. What’s the eitzah?

    (Truth is, I put down the shailah very simply so the answer is obvious, but I happen to be learning a shtikkel basar bichalav so it was fun to hear azah shailah in real life.)

    #957230
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Let the ones who ate parve taste them to determine which is which.

    #957231
    Toi
    Participant

    no no. i think you serve them one by one to the ones who ate fleishig. then the pareve ones eat last. on the first 45 you can say kol diparish from the pareve, and likulei alma the people who didnt eat meat can eat the last ten.

    #957232
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    DaasYochid is right of course. I’m just saying so because he signs ‘daas yochid’ while the reality is that what he is saying is pretty clear from the sugya (the rashba writes it explicitly in any case)

    #957233
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    DaasYochid’s answer is viable according to the Shach. Alternatively, if one does not agree with the Shach, since there is no way of knowing which is which, it is a classic case of ????, and a fleishig person would be allowed to eat up to fifty of the bowls; maybe more.

    That is assuming a bowl of ice cream is not a ??? ????, which is a very reasonable assumption.

    #957234
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Try dowsing.

    #957235
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Toi,

    As soon as they taste one spoonful, if it tastes milchig, they have to stop.

    I don’t think they’re even allowed, since it’s efshar l’varer.

    #957236
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I am assuming, of course, that they’re distinguishable in taste, especially as per the question, which assumed that parve ice cream is “ichy”.

    #957237
    WIY
    Member

    I think part of the equation should be how many cups were possibly filled with milchig ice cream, no?

    #957238
    Sam2
    Participant

    You can tell which is which.

    #957239
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, even without tasting?

    #957240
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: No, but that doesn’t matter. We are Noheg not to allow T’imas Yisrael. Have a Pareve person taste them all.

    #957242
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Is it really Parush? You don’t know which one you are taking but they are all there.

    #957243
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, yes, that was my idea as well.

    #957244
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    We are Noheg not to allow T’imas Yisrael.

    Who is “we”? I know some who do and some who do not.

    #957245
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam and Yit, are we talking about trusting the t’ima, or allowing t’ima of possible issur?

    If the former, I’ll point out that we’re not talking about merely nosen ta’am , we’re talking about an ikkar ta’am.

    If the latter, I’ll point out that yit is being his usual non-conformist self. 🙂

    #957246
    Toi
    Participant

    okok to clarify, the ice cream is identical in appearance and taste. my bad.

    #957247
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Toi, then this should have been in the “best pareve desserts” thread. 😉

    #957248
    benignuman
    Participant

    It has been a while, but if recall correctly the issue of relying on t’ima is when dealing with a mixture.

    Here there is no mixture, one doesn’t need to be especially talented or sensitive to tell the difference. Why should we not use the pareve people to test?

    #957249
    WIY
    Member

    Toi

    “okok to clarify, the ice cream is identical in appearance and taste. my bad.”

    The plot thickens lol.

    If you cant tell the diff in taste then you must wait 6 hours before serving it to any fleishig person. Thats what I would say.

    #957250
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Was the ice cream cholov yisroel? If so we can assume it is not really milchig anyway.

    #957251
    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: That’s for sure not right. Toi is correct. This is Parush MeiRuba and it should be Muttar for everyone to eat all of it. (Maybe we would be Machmir to only allow Fleishig people to have as much Pareve as we know was served; that’s a Machlokes.)

    #957252
    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    Why should we be someich on heteirim like kol deparish when its a davar sheyeish lo matirim by waiting 6 hours to eat it?

    #957253
    ilovetorah
    Participant

    its been a while since i learned the sugya, but if i remember correctly, you are making a wrong assumption by saying kal d’parish. if it was already served to each guest than it is kal d’parush, however, from your question it seems that the safek was realized when all sixty cups were still together (eg. on the serving tray). if so you are not allowed to take one from the mixture.

    #957254
    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: Interesting. Davar SheYeish Lo Matirim is a good point. I guess it depends if Kol D’parish is a Din in Bittul B’rov (which I think B’pashtus it is).

    #957255
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I would think that each scoop of ice cream would be the chatichas basar, and each tub a chanus. I don’t think it’s magus, or a ta’aroves; rather, parush as Toi said. DSL’M sounds correct, though.

    #957256
    Toi
    Participant

    ilove-that cant be right- the case of the the machlokes Gaon and Rashba (or the rosh?) gufa is where you have 2 chatichos of shchutah and one of niveilah. and you eat them. so here too you can eat them. im not sure about DSL’M. need to think about it.

    #957257
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s magus, or a ta’aroves;

    That was supposed to read: I don’t think it’s kavua, or a ta’aroves;

    #957258
    ilovetorah
    Participant

    Let me repeat that I’m not holding in the sugya. I don’t understand the train of thought going on here. Mema nafshach, if you’re considering the safek, that each cup may have come from this tub or that tub, then its not “kal dparush” , its a case of “lakach min hakvius” which has a din of kvius. And if your safek is noled only now in the serving tray where you have 60 cups of ice cream and your mesupek which is milk which is pareve, then it has nothing to do with kvius or kal dparush, its a regular case of taaruvos where dinei bitul would get involved not kvius and parish. Am I wrong?

    #957259
    ilovetorah
    Participant

    One more point, if you’re looking at each cup and mesupek which tub it came from, there is no rov at all (assuming there were two tubs, one milk and one pareve)

    #957260
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One more point, if you’re looking at each cup and mesupek which tub it came from, there is no rov at all (assuming there were two tubs, one milk and one pareve)

    I think you’re right. It’s not like eser chanuyos.

    #957261
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    The following q is coming from a complete basar b’cholov am ha’aretz (sadly, me): Doesn’t it matter that eating milchigs after fleishigs is (at least) not a issur d’oiraisa? Wouldn’t that affect the bitul question? Most of the comparisons seem to involve neveilos. No? Please enlighten me…

    #957262
    ilovetorah
    Participant

    You’re no longer DaasYochid , you’re ” DaasShnayim”. 🙂

    #957263
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Doesn’t it matter that eating milchigs after fleishigs is (at least) not a issur d’oiraisa? Wouldn’t that affect the bitul question?

    Yes, it’s d’rabbonon. Are you asking based on safek d’rabbanan l’kula?

    #957264
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Toi

    beware the cleats

    okok to clarify, the ice cream is identical in appearance and taste. my bad.

    Posted 1 day ago #

    DaasYochid

    a singular mind

    Toi, then this should have been in the “best pareve desserts” thread. 😉

    This should go up as one of the best responses in the CR.

    #957265
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    All of them are being eaten so it is actually a case of Shnei Shvilin. In that case we would have to rely on ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, which works only by a Derabanan. I don’t know if we consider the Bassar Vechalav variants (chicken, 6 hours, Chad Betrei) Kula’ble Derabanans.

    The most puzzling thing about chicken is that we apply the Sakana of eating it with fish. If we would be eating it with milk, I don’t think it would cross anyone’s mind to bunch it together with meat in this regard.

    By the way, ice cream doesn’thave a Zman Heter. It won’t be ice cream anymore. (Yeah, OK.)

    #957266
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    No. I think that was addressed with the yesh lo matirin arguments before.

    I’m asking (and I know I could be very wrong) is:

    the concept of bittul clearly requires two distinct identities. The thing being botul and the thing it’s being botul to.

    Are strawberry ice creams botul to raspberry ones? I think not, because there’s not distinct halachic identity between them, unlike neveila and shchuta.

    Now here, there’s milchig and pareve with the only difference being that the milchig might cause external people to violate a minhag/drabanan.

    Is this sufficient to cause a halachik identity suffucient to start discussing bitul?

    #957267
    WIY
    Member

    I think its pashut theres nothing left to add. Its a davar sheyeish lo matirim theres no reason to rely on any heteirim for anything here.

    #957268
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m asking (and I know I could be very wrong) is:

    the concept of bittul clearly requires two distinct identities. The thing being botul and the thing it’s being botul to.

    Are strawberry ice creams botul to raspberry ones? I think not, because there’s not distinct halachic identity between them, unlike neveila and shchuta.

    Ayin Ran Nedarim 52a.

    #957269
    Chortkov
    Participant

    From another total am haaretz on the taaruvous front (as yitaningut pointed out on another thread :-)) —

    Why is there no ??? ????? ?????? (Is ?????? ?????? a difference? I seem to remember a ?? who says that you DONT say ?????…)

    #957270
    Toi
    Participant

    5 tubs parev. 1 tub milchig. this case gets better and better. just kidding, i forgot to write all the details.

    #957271
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, you forgot to mention that it was after bentching, an hour after the meat was finished, and it took place in Holland.

    #957272
    Toi
    Participant

    DY- right, right, my bad.

    #957273
    WIY
    Member

    Toi

    A Rav would have a field day with you.

    #957274
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    “Now, there are fifty bowls of pareve ichy fake ice cream, and ten bowls of milchig ice cream. What’s the eitzah?”

    If it’s ichy it certainly shouldn’t take more than a tiny taste per bowl to set it straight…

    #957275
    Toi
    Participant

    WIY- if i remember correctly, i was exhausted and quite inebriated at the time this thread went up.

Viewing 46 posts - 1 through 46 (of 46 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.