Pre-Yom Kippur Request from the helige Coffee Room Posters

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  • #1373865

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I would like to make the following request from all my Coffee Room friends: As you all very well aware, it is Erev Yom Kippur which is an opportune time for taking on kabbalas. As I’m sure you are also very aware, Chillul Hashem is one of the biggest aveiros. Actually, I think it may be the biggest aveira. (I have no time to look for sources now, but maybe someone else can do me a favor, and find and post them).

    One of dangers of the Coffee Room is the great potential for Chillul Hashem. To quote Y.W. Editor, “This is the Internet and everyone sees what you write. Ve’Hameivin Yavin.”

    Perhaps it would be a good idea if we all took upon ourselves this year to be very careful to make sure that none of our posts can cause a Chillul Hashem. Any posts that present Am Yisrael or the Frum Community or the Torah Community or Gedolei Yisrael in a bad light would fall in this category. Any posts that contain “onaas devarim” would probably fall in that category as well.

    If we all take on ourselves to do so, this would be a tremendous zchus for Am Yisrael and possibly bring Mashiach.

    In any case, it is very possible that each post that you refrain from posting because of a “safek” of Chillul Hashem is saving the lives of Yidden. Who knows how many lives you may be saving each time you choose not to post something out of concern of hurting someone’s feelings or causing a Chilul Hashem, chalila?
    I would also appreciate it if anytime someone thinks that a post of mine falls in one of the above categories, they could do me a favor and let me know in a sensitive manner.

    Thanks so much everyone!!!!
    G’mar Chasima Tova to everyone!!!! And again, I hope that anyone whose feelings I may have hurt is moichel me.

    #1373873

    Joseph
    Participant

    I believe this thread should permanently be made into a sticky.

    #1373971

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Of course others believe hiding the negative under the rug is a chilul Hashem. And honest appraisal of our (few) faults is in fact a good thing

    #1373982

    Joseph
    Participant

    Hiding, i.e. not publicizing, negatives of Klal Yisroel is a Kiddush Hashem. It would be a Chillul Hashem to broadcast negatives.

    Appraising one’s faults is surely a good thing. And we should all do that for ourselves and improve our faults as we work to fix them. But not putting the klal’s faults in the newspapers. Or on the internet.

    #1374074

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if only i could believe that evils would be dealt with by gedolim and responsible lay leaders without airing them in public, i would agree with you. Unfortunately, history has shown this not to be the vase.

    #1377469

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Based on the previous post as well as other posts that I have seen in other threads, I think there is a very important point that needs clarification:

    Belief in Hashem means believing that He is all Powerful and that He is the ONLY One in control, and He is the ONLY One who makes things happen.

    Not believing this is kefira (heresy).
    The ONLY reason for doing hishtadlus (practical effort) is because Hashem said that we should do so, and therefore He may choose not to give us whatever the thing is (a livelihood for example) unless we do hishtadlus.

    But it is ALWAYS Hashem who is in control and making everything happen. Hashem does not want us to do hishtadlus that goes against the halacha, so if someone does hishtadlus that is against Halacha, Hashem is not going to reward them for it, so it is not possible that they will gain something by doing so.

    For example, Hashem decides what a person’s parnassa will be for the year. If the person robs a bank, it is not possible that he will end up with more money than Hashem had decided He should have. Since Hashem is All Powerful, you can’t cause anything to happen that He doesn’t want to happen.

    Thinking otherwise is kefira. Likewise, if someone thinks that by posting something that is against Halacha, he can help Am Yisrael and not hurt Am Yisrael, this demonstrates a lack of belief in Hashem’s Power and is kefira.

    Note: I realize that the above poster may not have meant to imply otherwise, but that is the conclusion inherent in his words, so it was important to point this out. If that was not his intention, he should please explain what his intention was, so I can explain why it’s still a problem.

    #1377509

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    A few disagreements
    first of al not all agree on your narrow definition of hashgacha and the need for hishtadlus. that is certianly the most popular view around today but it isnt the only view, and you should be careful throwing terms like “kefira” around isnt helpful. The Rambam lists 13 ikurim (not that those are universally held either) this idea isnt one of them.

    second
    “but that is the conclusion inherent in his words,”
    Im not sure which poster you refer to, but I do not see how you reached that conclusion in any of the above posts.

    The reality is as LC writes.
    There have been problems that were ignored for years until bloggers wrote about it publicly and openly. Rabbi Zweibel (certainly no fan of blogs) admitted this in an interview with AMi (or Mishpacha) a few eyars back

    third
    “so if someone does hishtadlus that is against Halacha,”
    The arguments is whether it is against halacha. Arguably publicizing a problem that will save lives isnt against halacha.

    #1378230

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    5. “ “so if someone does hishtadlus that is against Halacha,” The arguments is whether it is against halacha.”
    That’s a different argument. There are two things that need to be discussed here. One is whether it helps to do hishtadlus that is against halacha. The other is whether or not this is against halacha.

    The logical progression is to first discuss and prove that it doesn’t help to do hishtadlus that is against halacha, and only once that is agreed upon does it make sense to move on to the second point. That is why I started with the first two points and waited to see if someone would say that they agree with the first point, but disagree with the second, and then I was going to proceed to argue the second point.

    There were two possible ways in which my post could have been attacked, and I was prepared for either.
    One was by arguing with the idea that it doesn’t help to do hishtadlus that is against halacha, and the other was to agree with that point but to say that this type of hishtadlus is not against halacha.

    You can take either tactic and I can argue with either one, but you seem to be unsure as to which one you are taking. Your first two points were arguing with my statement that hishtadlus that goes against halacha does not help, but now you are saying that the issue is whether or not it is against halacha. If that is what you think the issue is, then what was the point of your first two arguments?

    And if you are going to say that the point of your first two statements was not to argue with the statement that “hishtadlus that goes against halacha does not help” then I don’t know what your point was, since the only point in my post was to prove that fact.

    I would be happy to discuss the last point with you (in a separate post), but there is no point in discussing it until you clarify whether or not you agree with the statement that “ hishtadlus that goes against halacha doesn’t help.”

    #1378229

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    4. “The reality is as LC writes. There have been problems that were ignored for years until bloggers wrote about it publicly and openly. Rabbi Zweibel (certainly no fan of blogs) admitted this in an interview with AMi (or Mishpacha) a few eyars back”

    I was waiting for someone to say something to that effect. It’s like the guy who robs the bank. People may think that he gained extra money since they see that he now has money that he didn’t have before.

    The problem is that they have no way of knowing how much money he would have had if he hadn’t robbed the bank. It is possible that Hashem would have given him even more money.

    The other problem is that they only see the money he has in his hand right now. They don’t realize that he caused more harm to himself than good since Hashem’s plan is to cause him to be in a car accident and have to pay more than that in hospital bills so he will end up with less money plus he will be paralyzed for life.

    Even if it’s true that it SEEMS as though the bloggers writing about these things causes something good to happen, we have no way of knowing if that is in fact the case. The same results could have resulted a different way, and perhaps more harm was caused than good. We do not know yet all of the harm that they may have caused.

    Just to give one example of the possible harm they could have caused: Before the holocaust, there was a certain problem taking place in the Jewish world and a certain Jewish woman wanted to publicize it. She was told not to, but she went ahead and did so anyhow. The Nazis ended up using her articles for anti-Semitic propaganda, and it is possible that Jews were killed as a result.

    I do not who told her not to publicize the information and I do not know enough details of the case to be able to state a definite opinion on that specific case; I am simply using it as an example to show that sometimes it may seem as though there was a positive result from something and yet it is possible that the damage done was greater.

    If something was done in a way that is against Halacha, the damage done is definitely greater. הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים Hashem runs the world. Our only job is to keep halacha.

    #1378227

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Moderators: Please note that I am dividing my response to Ubiquitin into 3 posts since it’s so long. Can you try to see to it that they get posted in order? Thanks so much!!! And can you please leave this request up, so that Ubiquitin and other readers will realize that it’s one long post divided into 3. Thanks!

    @ubiquitin:

    1. The first Ani Maamin is: אני מאמין באמונה שלמה שהבורא יתברך שמו הוא בורא ומנהיג לכל הברואים והוא לבדו עשה ועושה ויעשה לכל המעשים. It is kefira to think that Hashem is not All-Powerful.

    2. Making the statement“not all agree on your narrow definition of hashgacha and the need for hishtadlus” is not a good argument. If you think that is the case, provide sources explaining what the other views are and who has them and what your point is. However, before doing so, please see my last point in my last post from the posts that are coming next. If you agree with the statement that “One should not do hishtadlus that is against halacha”, then your point (whatever it is) might not be relevant to my argument.

    3. I was referring to LC’s post

    #1378292

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    (In the order that you intended)
    “It is kefira to think that Hashem is not All-Powerful.”

    firstly I agree though
    a. That isnt what you said, you said “and He is the ONLY One who makes things happen” that is not the opposite of him being “All-Powerful” it isnt kefira to maintain Hashem allows hishtadlus to have an affect whether it violates Halacha or not.
    b. As mentioned even if the the Ramabm says what yo uclaim, as mentioned, not all agree

    2.
    ” provide sources explaining what the other views are and who has them ”

    ITs much too long a discussion. For a starting point read through variosu Rishonim on “Veechazak es Leiv PAroh, while the notion of bechira is not the direct subject at hand, it is related since a simple reading of your narrow definition of hishtadlus doesnt allow for bechira. Yes there are those who answer R’ Dessler in particular was a strong proponent of your position.
    Besides I dont have to provide sources IF Hashem wants you to know them you will know them whether I provide them or not.

    3. ” I was referring to LC’s post”

    Not sure how yo ureached that “if only i could believe that evils would be dealt with by gedolim and responsible lay leaders without airing them in public” in any way disputes “Belief in Hashem means believing that He is all Powerful and that He is the ONLY One in control, and He is the ONLY One who makes things happen.”

    #1378297

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU (continued)
    4. “I was waiting for someone to say something to that effect.”
    glad to help!
    though there was no need to wait R” Zweibel said it long before this thread began

    “It is possible that Hashem would have given him even more money.”
    Of course its possible It is also possible that he is now richer (though he will get punished, unlike your narrow definiiton of hishtadlus, schar veonesh IS one of the ikkurim (#11) and I am not aware of nay maclhokes on the general principle, though the details are disputed)

    You repeat “Our only job is to keep halacha.”
    Again though if lives will be saved it isnt neccesarily againt halacha.

    This simplistic view led you to the wrong conslusion regarding mesira when a neighbor is at risk as well. It isnt agaisnt halacha if a person is at risk. When people are beign abused it isnt agaisnt halacha to publicize it.
    And even if it was “kaasher avadati avadati” read the Meforshim about Aaron collecting money to build an Eigel.

    #1378299

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    5.
    “That’s a different argument.”

    Says you

    ” There are two things that need to be discussed here. ”

    none of these “Need” to be discussed. Especially when you consider my typing this information doesnt actually convey any knowledge according to your view.

    “The logical progression is to first discuss and prove that it doesn’t help to do hishtadlus that is against halacha, and only once that is agreed upon does it make sense to move on to the second point. ”

    Im good at discussing multiple points at one. PArticularly since I am not sure about your first point. As to whether it “doesn’t help to do hishtadlus that is against halacha” frankly Idont know. It probably depends on what yo umean by “Help” It is hard for me to accept that Kayin’s stabbing Hevel didint actually kill him and if not for Kayin to Hevel would have died at the same time with the same sufferign. not to mention the suffering Adam endured at ebing told it was his Son who killed his other son. Agian it isnt impossible. I simply dont know and it isnt a point I am to invested in thus not one I feel particularly compelled ot argue over

    If yo umake two points “It isnt going to rain today and umbreallas dont keep you dry” Im not sure hwy we HAVE to settle the first before dealing with the second If both are wrong (or at least debatable) then bot hare debatable.

    “but you seem to be unsure as to which one you are taking”

    Because am unsure, though even if not both are at the lest debatable.

    “And if you are going to say that the point of your first two statements was not to argue with the statement that “hishtadlus that goes against halacha does not help” then I don’t know what your point was,”

    My point was that you were wrong. as to why I provided three reasons in my first post to you.

    ” since the only point in my post was to prove that fact.”

    Im not sure how you proved anything.
    Yo umade some strong claims and said anyone who argues is a kofer. that isnt anything near proof.
    The only thing that resembles a proof is the Ani maamin, though it doesnt say what yo uclaim, and The Rambam in Chelek certainly doesnt say what you claim (We dont know who wrote the ani maamin)

    #1378301

    The little I know
    Participant

    There is a fundamental error, rather common, much more so since the internet became nearly universal. Chilul Hashem is NOT defined by publicity. If something negative does become public, the chilul Hashem has just been spread. But the issue exists regardless of whether it is public, private, or top secret. If anyone wishes to question this, I refer to the Mishna in Pirkei Avos (4:4):
    המחלל שם שמים בסתר נפרעים ממנו בגלוי.

    Clearly, the chilul Hashem can occur without others knowing. If it was secret, how did it qualify to be chilul Hashem? If something negative can be discussed, the forum or amount of attention is immaterial. Does anyone wish to disagree with this Mishna?

    #1378323

    Chortkov
    Participant

    וכבר היה האדם יכול להיות יושב ובטל והגזירה היתה מתקיימת, אם לא שקדם הקנס לכל אדם, (בראשית ג’) “בזעת אפיך תאכל לחם”, אשר על כן חייב אדם להשתדל איזה השתדלות לצורך פרנסתו, שכן גזר המלך העליון, והרי זה כמס שפורע כל המין האנושי אשר אין להמלט ממנו. על כן אמר בספרי, יכול אפילו יושב ובטל, תלמוד לומר “בכל משלח ידך אשר תעשה”.
    אבל לא שההשתדלות מועילה, אלא שההשתדלות מוכרחת וכיון שהשתדל הרי יצא ידי חובתו, וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתחול עליו, ואינו צריך לבלות ימיו בחריצות ובהשתדלות, הוא מה שאמר דוד המלך ע”ה (תהלים פ”ה) “כי לא ממוצא וממערב וגו’ כי אלקים שופט”. ושלמה המלך אמר (משלי כ”ג) “אל תיגע להעשיר מבינתך חדל”… (מסילת ישרים פרק כא)

    #1378358

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    yekke2

    Im sorry if I implied that isnt a valid view
    The Rambam in Moreh fmaously disagrees. (Is this really news?)

    LU
    By the way in addition to the two different issues you deleinated above. Even in your first point. There are two points that you mushed together
    You write your point as ““hishtadlus that goes against halacha does not help”
    The 2 points are
    1) does it accomplish anything ( Iassume this is what yo umena by help)
    2) IF it does accomplish anything is it still forbidden to do the act. (See discussions about an averia lishma for example Lot’s daughters in Nazir, not that anyone in any case we alluded to has doen anything lishma)

    This is aside from what you view as a second point as to this specific case is assur
    although even within that second points there are different things to consider
    1) is there any tzad issur (for example if it was already known)
    2) does it remain assur if the benefits outweigh (this is different though similar to point #2 )

    More to the point though the quesion really is if disagreeing with any of these is kefira

    #1378288

    lesschumras
    Participant

    LU, as udual you said alot but said nothing. Cm
    Child molestation has been going on for DECADES. My sister was molested 65 years ago. Until stories began to be aired, its existence was denied. Sakanas nefoshos made the exposure halachacly spproved.
    Medicaid, Section 8 and food stamp fraud has neen an open secret for decades. Why did it take indictments and public exposure to get the Lakewood to hold meetings to urge people to stop the theft?

    Why didn’t the gedolim put a stop to these practices a long time ago?

    By the way, witj your regard to your proof case. Citing a cade where you know none of tje details is not exactly convincing, since the Nazis didn’t need articlles to kill Jews.

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