June 11, 2012 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #879336nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I unsure how the women in the case of a heter meah rabbonim can be an agunah. A get is held for her to accept by Beis din. The heter is because she does not want to accept the get. Not wanting to accept an available does not make one an agunah, except perhaps by the feminists.June 12, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #879337
I unsure how the women in the case of a heter meah rabbonim can be an agunah. A get is held for her to accept by Beis din. The heter is because she does not want to accept the get. Not wanting to accept an available does not make one an agunah, except perhaps by the feminists.
There was an article in one of the chareidi magazines last year (perhaps kolmos) where they described the abuse which goes on. It seems that the abusive heters leave a get, but the get has shailos on it, so she can’t remarry with it.June 12, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #879338
popa: What magazine is kolmos?June 12, 2012 12:30 am at 12:30 am #879339OneOfManyParticipant
It’s one of the Mishpacha’s Yom Tov supplements.June 12, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #879340
Thank YouJune 12, 2012 12:40 am at 12:40 am #879341Feif UnParticipant
Tomche, it says the following:
However, this support obligation shall terminate if Wife-to-Be refuses to appear upon due notice before the Beth Din of America or in the event that Wife-to-Be fails to abide by the decision or recommendation of the Beth Din of America.June 12, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #879342
Feif: That just takes away her support in such a case. But she doesn’t have any punitive penalty which they could use to force her to take the get.
Seeing as the problem of women not accepting a get is just as frequent, and it is very hard to obtain a scrupulous heter meah rabbonim (apparently an unscrupulous one can be had for $50k), it is very surprising that they forgot to include something to force her as well.
I think if I had to sign one, I’d modify it so that whenever I wanted, I could also walk out and be mechayev her $150 per day, until the beis din says she doesn’t have to. And I expect she’d have no objections to that.
I would also amend it so that both parties waived all rights to go to a secular court for any reason except to enforce the penalties and the judgments of the beis din. And I’d also amend it so that the beis din could judge only with din torah as it appears in halacha, and not according to any secular laws. And I expect she’d have no objections to that.June 12, 2012 12:51 am at 12:51 am #879343
Sounds like a plan, popa. There goes her 50/50 asset split in favor of your 100/0. (She can still take any assets she had from before marriage.)June 12, 2012 1:15 am at 1:15 am #879344Feif UnParticipant
PBA: Tomche said the women would get money no matter what, whether she listened to Beis Din or not. I was simply refuting his claim.
As for forcing her to take the get, you’re correct. In such a case, I assume they would use a heter meiah rabbonim for the man, and the woman would be unable to remarry. That is not an agunah case.June 12, 2012 1:44 am at 1:44 am #879345
As for forcing her to take the get, you’re correct. In such a case, I assume they would use a heter meiah rabbonim for the man, and the woman would be unable to remarry. That is not an agunah case.
It is in fact an agunah case, because it is really hard to get a heter meah rabbonim, and to get a bad one costs 50k and is almost certainly assur.
And the fact that nobody cares about the male agunos, is deeply disturbing.June 12, 2012 1:48 am at 1:48 am #879346shlishiMember
What could cause a heter meah to be “bad” if it contains the requisite 100 rabbomim?June 12, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #879347
PBA: Because, again, male Agunim are much rarer and have the recourse of a Heter Meah Rabannim. And I’m sure if the BDA ruled her a Mesarevet that between the members of the BDA, RCA, YU Roshei Yeshivah, Mashgichim, Kollel Elyon members, etc. a Heter Meah Rabbanim would not be hard at all for the BDA to get.June 12, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #879348
Sam: I have actually heard that it is just as common–that there is a female refusing the get for every male who is withholding one.
And it is not easy at all to get a heter meah rabbonim. See that kolmos (I think) article, v’dok.June 12, 2012 2:12 am at 2:12 am #879349
PBA: Why? How many members do the BDA and RCA have? I assume that’s either pretty close to or over the 100 already. And if there aren’t enough I’m sure they’d go straight to all of the YU Roshei Yeshivah and Kollel Elyon members. That’s at least another 60 or 70, I think. If the BDA ever needed to get an HMR they’d be able to do it without much cost or trouble.
Also, I asked someone at ORA, for whatever that’s worth. I was told that in their history they’ve had several hundred women contact them whose husbands were refusing to give Gittin or go to Beis Din. They’ve had less than 10 men asked to be represented.June 12, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #879350
I dunno what ORA is, but if it is an organization for women, that would explain it.
And I don’t know why it is hard–I just am aware that it is. That is why some men pay 50k to get an irreputable one.June 12, 2012 2:15 am at 2:15 am #879351
PBA: ORA is one of these organizations that holds rallies and protests etc. that everyone gets upset about. They represent anyone stuck in a marriage they don’t want and have represented men in the past. But they are contacted by very, very few as opposed to the hundreds of women who contact them. They also ask for Rav Schachter’s Haskama on everything they do.June 12, 2012 2:45 am at 2:45 am #879352CsarMember
They represent anyone stuck in a marriage they don’t want
What on earth does that mean? Just because someone “doesn’t want” a marriage, does not entitle them to leave it. That is why Rabbeinu Gershom made a cherem to prevent men from divorcing their wife without consent. (Women were always prohibited from simply leaving a marriage because they didn’t “want” it anymore; they need a good halachic justification for a beis din to mandate a divorce.)June 12, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #879353
Sorry, I should have been clearer. ORA says they always advise to go to Beis Din first. The “marriage they don’t want” line meant where going to Beis Din either isn’t feasible or hasn’t worked in the past. That is entirely my fault for misstating. Or, better yet, Google “Organization for the Resolution of Agunot” and see what they are for yourselves rather than critiquing my five-second explanation of it.June 12, 2012 3:01 am at 3:01 am #879354CsarMember
I’m still not understanding. They only “advise” to go to BD first; but if going to BD “isn’t feasible” they’ll start protesting against the spouse without a BD first ruling a divorce is required under halacha?June 12, 2012 3:43 am at 3:43 am #879355
Csar: Of course not. I believe they only protest once Beis Din has declared someone a Mesareiv.
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