PRENUPTUALS in FRUM circles??!

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  • This topic contains 119 replies, has 32 voices, and was last updated by  Sam2 7 years ago.
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  • #879336

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I unsure how the women in the case of a heter meah rabbonim can be an agunah. A get is held for her to accept by Beis din. The heter is because she does not want to accept the get. Not wanting to accept an available does not make one an agunah, except perhaps by the feminists.

    #879337

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I unsure how the women in the case of a heter meah rabbonim can be an agunah. A get is held for her to accept by Beis din. The heter is because she does not want to accept the get. Not wanting to accept an available does not make one an agunah, except perhaps by the feminists.

    There was an article in one of the chareidi magazines last year (perhaps kolmos) where they described the abuse which goes on. It seems that the abusive heters leave a get, but the get has shailos on it, so she can’t remarry with it.

    #879338

    Tomche
    Member

    popa: What magazine is kolmos?

    #879339

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    It’s one of the Mishpacha’s Yom Tov supplements.

    #879340

    Tomche
    Member

    Thank You

    #879341

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Tomche, it says the following:

    However, this support obligation shall terminate if Wife-to-Be refuses to appear upon due notice before the Beth Din of America or in the event that Wife-to-Be fails to abide by the decision or recommendation of the Beth Din of America.

    #879342

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Feif: That just takes away her support in such a case. But she doesn’t have any punitive penalty which they could use to force her to take the get.

    Seeing as the problem of women not accepting a get is just as frequent, and it is very hard to obtain a scrupulous heter meah rabbonim (apparently an unscrupulous one can be had for $50k), it is very surprising that they forgot to include something to force her as well.

    I think if I had to sign one, I’d modify it so that whenever I wanted, I could also walk out and be mechayev her $150 per day, until the beis din says she doesn’t have to. And I expect she’d have no objections to that.

    I would also amend it so that both parties waived all rights to go to a secular court for any reason except to enforce the penalties and the judgments of the beis din. And I’d also amend it so that the beis din could judge only with din torah as it appears in halacha, and not according to any secular laws. And I expect she’d have no objections to that.

    #879343

    Tomche
    Member

    Sounds like a plan, popa. There goes her 50/50 asset split in favor of your 100/0. (She can still take any assets she had from before marriage.)

    #879344

    Feif Un
    Participant

    PBA: Tomche said the women would get money no matter what, whether she listened to Beis Din or not. I was simply refuting his claim.

    As for forcing her to take the get, you’re correct. In such a case, I assume they would use a heter meiah rabbonim for the man, and the woman would be unable to remarry. That is not an agunah case.

    #879345

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As for forcing her to take the get, you’re correct. In such a case, I assume they would use a heter meiah rabbonim for the man, and the woman would be unable to remarry. That is not an agunah case.

    It is in fact an agunah case, because it is really hard to get a heter meah rabbonim, and to get a bad one costs 50k and is almost certainly assur.

    And the fact that nobody cares about the male agunos, is deeply disturbing.

    #879346

    shlishi
    Member

    What could cause a heter meah to be “bad” if it contains the requisite 100 rabbomim?

    #879347

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Because, again, male Agunim are much rarer and have the recourse of a Heter Meah Rabannim. And I’m sure if the BDA ruled her a Mesarevet that between the members of the BDA, RCA, YU Roshei Yeshivah, Mashgichim, Kollel Elyon members, etc. a Heter Meah Rabbanim would not be hard at all for the BDA to get.

    #879348

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: I have actually heard that it is just as common–that there is a female refusing the get for every male who is withholding one.

    And it is not easy at all to get a heter meah rabbonim. See that kolmos (I think) article, v’dok.

    #879349

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Why? How many members do the BDA and RCA have? I assume that’s either pretty close to or over the 100 already. And if there aren’t enough I’m sure they’d go straight to all of the YU Roshei Yeshivah and Kollel Elyon members. That’s at least another 60 or 70, I think. If the BDA ever needed to get an HMR they’d be able to do it without much cost or trouble.

    Also, I asked someone at ORA, for whatever that’s worth. I was told that in their history they’ve had several hundred women contact them whose husbands were refusing to give Gittin or go to Beis Din. They’ve had less than 10 men asked to be represented.

    #879350

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I dunno what ORA is, but if it is an organization for women, that would explain it.

    And I don’t know why it is hard–I just am aware that it is. That is why some men pay 50k to get an irreputable one.

    #879351

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: ORA is one of these organizations that holds rallies and protests etc. that everyone gets upset about. They represent anyone stuck in a marriage they don’t want and have represented men in the past. But they are contacted by very, very few as opposed to the hundreds of women who contact them. They also ask for Rav Schachter’s Haskama on everything they do.

    #879352

    Csar
    Member

    They represent anyone stuck in a marriage they don’t want

    What on earth does that mean? Just because someone “doesn’t want” a marriage, does not entitle them to leave it. That is why Rabbeinu Gershom made a cherem to prevent men from divorcing their wife without consent. (Women were always prohibited from simply leaving a marriage because they didn’t “want” it anymore; they need a good halachic justification for a beis din to mandate a divorce.)

    #879353

    Sam2
    Participant

    Sorry, I should have been clearer. ORA says they always advise to go to Beis Din first. The “marriage they don’t want” line meant where going to Beis Din either isn’t feasible or hasn’t worked in the past. That is entirely my fault for misstating. Or, better yet, Google “Organization for the Resolution of Agunot” and see what they are for yourselves rather than critiquing my five-second explanation of it.

    #879354

    Csar
    Member

    I’m still not understanding. They only “advise” to go to BD first; but if going to BD “isn’t feasible” they’ll start protesting against the spouse without a BD first ruling a divorce is required under halacha?

    #879355

    Sam2
    Participant

    Csar: Of course not. I believe they only protest once Beis Din has declared someone a Mesareiv.

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