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I am a member of a number of online/Facebook cooking forums ( all Jewish and mainly consisting of orthodox women). Today a Frum, and I use the term frum somewhat loosely, woman posted about the upcoming first annual LGBT pride minyan in New York City, and then some general info about it. I privately messaged her because I had never heard of this before and she told me what it was all about. It is basically a place where orthodox members of the LGBT community can be safe, and Daven to Gd without feeling Shamed or judged.
My question is, if people are going to act on their yetzer harahs and be openly homosexual, is it at least better that they consider themselves orthodox, Daven, keep kosher etc. Do you consider them frum still? I just found this interesting and wanted to discuss.
Homosexual Jews should certainly keep mitzvot, no question about that.
Officially sanctioning a lifestyle choice which the Torah condemns in the strongest terms is altogether different.
The synagogue doors should be open to all people, including Jews who are gay, intermarried, sabbath-desecrating, etc. How exactly to make these people feel welcome and how to be inclusive without appearing to sanction their choices is a different issue, and one that requires much thought and sensitivity to a wide array of halakhic factors, including ahavat yisrael, kavod habriyot, dignity concerns, as well as marit ayin concerns.
I don’t understand why they would have their own minyon. As long as they restrain their yetzer horahs why can’t they daven in regular shuls? I know of no shul that questions whether a person is “gay”?
Not everyone who considers themselves frum keeps everything
I think Ive heard a term Shomrei Mitzvas (Or something like that) to distunguish between an orthodox person and a charedi person.
There are plenty of people who go to Orthodox shuls who do not keep Tacharas Mishpacha, Plenty of women who dont cover their hair or wear pants.
There are plenty of men who do not go to shul everyday, Wear Tzizzit or Tfillin everyday
There are frum people who cheat on their taxes (Many Openly) who commit other kinds of Thefts
There are yeshivas who launder drug money
The point is there is much averaihs going on.
Let Hashem Decide
If a person comes to a minyan, halacha stipulates a DADT policy, more or less. People have a hazaka of being Jewish and eligible for aliyot, and all other ritual purposes. I can see why the gays wanting their own minyanim is ill-fitting.
The only reason that they have this desire is because they do not accept Torah. see Ibn Ezra on Lo Sachmod
AbA: That is true of many people, but there are definitely some genetically wired to only be attracted to men.
On the general issue, I can definitely hear open but not-practicing people wanting to get away from attacking eyes. Then again, I don’t know if a Minyan exists of open but not-practicing people attracted to the same gender (I have met a few, though, so maybe there are10 of them around the world). But calling it “Pride” and including the “B” and “T” parts of those sheds light on what the Minyan is trying to accomplish and it seems to be accommodating far more than just Shomrei Torah Umitzvos with a certain Yetzer Hara.
Abba bar Aristotle: It’s not like they’re thinking to themselves “Hmm, since the Torah forbids homosexuals, I think I’ll be one.” They don’t necessarily not accept the Torah. It’s just who they’re attracted to, some people can’t help it. (I’m not saying it’s ok, but I understand why they would do that).
“is it at least better that they consider themselves orthodox, Daven, keep kosher etc.”
Of course!
“Do you consider them frum still?”
Anyone who is shomer Shabat and keeps a kosher home is in a very real sense part of the community even if they keep no other mitzvot. We certainly consider ganavim to be a part of the community even though certain types of business fraud are also described in the Torah as a toeivah.
Blast it, I was hoping this was going to be troll thread. No fair.
Charlie,
So a Minyan defining themselves as thieves or rapists is ok? The issue of such a minyan is that it is A) defined by their sexual desires, hardly what one would think is the appropriate defining purpose of what is ostensibly a ???? ????? ( more on this later). B) being defined by acts that in many instances, is subject to a ??? ????, and is the opposite of ?????. Hardly appropriate for a ???? ???.
Another issue would be the issue of ?????, (I know your going to throw a buddy fit about this, but it won’t change facts). We all know what the ??? is about a shul without a ?????. Particularly when the whole shul is established on sexual attraction, regardless of the form.
If there is a minyan with homosexuals of the same gender, is that considered a mixed minyan?
Mods: Why are you so scared of approving my above post. ??? ?? ????. If the truth hurts, so it be. Are you r”l with THEM?!?
A couple of relevant points.
Being openly gay is not the same as engaging in the relevant issurim, and there are levels of issurim which are less than actual arayos.
I don’t know if people are gay because of genetics; because of genetic predispositions and environmental triggers; only because of environmental triggers; only or partially because of other issurim they did; or only or partially because of other hashkafos they have. But I don’t think it really matters. Because I do know that regardless of the above, they aren’t making a conscious or easily reversible choice. The same way nobody makes a conscious choice to be depressed even though it may be due to any of the above factors or more.
Thus, there is such a thing as being gay, which is something I don’t think should be looked down on–in itself. If they are doing issurim, that is wrong. And if they are advancing hashkafos that challenge the Torah, that is also wrong.
So perhaps this minyan is wrong (I don’t have enough info), but some of this thread is also wrong.
PBA: Look, we agree again. I think this is going for a record here. (I was just a bit more concise than you on this.)
You were. And your points are good.
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