Pro Vaccination Paranoia in the frum community.

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  • #1616761

    Haimy
    Participant

    Disclaimer: I personally Vaccinate my children.
    The chances of you or your children catching a bacteria or virus due to the decisions of anti vaxxers is extremely unlikely. They represent a very small percentage of the population & there’s plenty of herd immunity without them.
    Even if Chas Veshalom a vaccinated person catches a sickness, it would be a much milder case & non life threatening or something of permanence.
    Calling these people Rotzchim & other nasty names points to a state of paranoia that some people are experiencing right now.
    Talking & texting is much more unsafe than the unvaxxed child in school, yet almost everyone does it.
    Speeding, overeating, alcohol, lack of sleep, are all much greater risks to life & limb than the small percentage of antivaxxers in the world.
    Let’s stop the paranoia! The fear & anxiety this is causing is more dangerous than the miniscule chance of catching a sickness.
    You are safe! your kids are safe! & go drink some herbal tea until this paranoia passes.

    #1616889

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not paranoia. We care about the children who did get it.

    #1616904

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Haimy, it’s not paranoia, as the dumb decisions of dumb people, are having real effects on others. They are not murderers as they lack the capacity for such, but it is not unfair to call them rotzchim. A baby died. Every anti vaxer who may have been a carrier of the disease should be in an ir miklat. and their children should be forcefully vaccinated.

    #1616911

    Haimy
    Participant

    How many people die from texting or talking on the phone while driving? Are you a rotzeiach? Shomer psaim Hashem. This no more of a danger than many other risks people take.

    #1616919

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The same could be said of terrorist attacks, Haimy.

    #1616921

    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    Texting while driving is very bad. But that doesn’t make not vaccinating good.

    #1616932

    Toi
    Participant

    Really Haimy? A kid in my kid’s Gan got measles. My kid still needed the second dose (which we’ve since gotten). I have a baby under a year who can’t get vaccinated. Measles sis extraordinarily contagious. Is this paranoia, or justified animosity directed at people who R”L put others’ children in sakana without giving a (if I could write bad words, I would, solely in this case) about the lives of others. Assuming you’re living in Lakewood, shkoiach, there are only a couple of cases. But not everyone does, and we’re justified in being furious. Rotzchim.

    #1616993

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Haimy; Your point is accurate. The situation is similar to a plane or train disaster with multiple casualties R”l which receives widespread media coverage. On the other hand all the “minor” car crashes with a couple of victims are not reported in such a manner even though in total there are thousands of more deaths R”l from these “minor” incidents.

    #1617010

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    If i were texting, then caused an accident where someone died, I’d be pretty shaken up. Wouldn’t you be? The question here is whether your stupid decision directly caused another person’s death. The fact that many don’t clearly see causation is part of the process.

    #1617014

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Haimy – those types of arguments are better to have AFTER bevoming informrd, not before. There are people walking around in certain communitoes with the measles virus. They seem to have magically spread the virus to others in their and other communities. Is that part the myth? Or are you pretending that none of those communities have infants too young to vaccinate (as toi said), chemo patients (who are out and about), transplant recipients on immunosuppressive medication, people with weak immune systems or elderly? Are they just pretending to be at risk and “paranoid” or do they not really exist in the first place?

    #1617035

    chasid
    Participant

    As a parent of a child on chemotherapy, a kid with measles could be a serious danger to my child.
    This is seriously one of the dumbest posts I’ve read on this forum. You assume to know the health of the kids in your kid’s school. There are many people who are immunosuppressed and some of these diseases could kill them.

    #1617041

    akuperma
    Participant

    Measles is actually quite serious. When a population with little immunity gets hit with measles, it can cause massive fatalities,

    #1617506

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Are families telling their cleaning people to get vaxed or not come to work?

    #1617514

    apushatayid
    Participant

    @ Amil. I know people in Lakewood who sent their cleaning help to Chemed to get vaccinated.

    #1617511

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Haimy, the statement “They represent a very small percentage of the population” may be true in Tri State area. In other areas, that is not the case.

    According to a story on the YWN homepage published 11/5/18 after 12pm, approximately FIFTY PERCENT of charedim in Yerushalayim are not vaccinated. Plenty of people from the Tri State visit Yerushalayim weekly and can easily carry the virus back home. those vaccinated are pretty safe (although the vacine is 95-97% efefctive, so people face a small chance of illness despite vaccination). There is a rather large peopulation of people in our community who are unable to be vaccinated, due to age or illness, and even some who are, due to illness their immunity is weakened. It is not hysteria.

    Hospitals in Yerushalyim are now banning unvaccinated people from maternity, pediatric and oncology and ICU.

    #1617539

    1
    Participant

    It’s amazing how some people want to backwards 100 years.

    #1617545

    bk613
    Participant

    Why would you assume that cleaning help is unvaccinated? Sounds a little racist.

    #1617547

    bk613
    Participant

    “According to a story on the YWN homepage published 11/5/18 after 12pm, approximately FIFTY PERCENT of charedim in Yerushalayim are not vaccinated”
    I highly doubt that this is because 50% of charedim are part of the anti-vax movement.

    #1617566

    Genya
    Participant

    Frum Yidden live in a state of denial when it comes to their health.

    Look at how we fress ourselves with garbage too.

    #1617604

    Health
    Participant

    Haimy -“there’s plenty of herd immunity without them.”

    No, there isn’t! That’s why there is an epdemic in the Frum communities, not everwhere.

    “Even if Chas Veshalom a vaccinated person catches a sickness, it would be a much milder case & non life threatening or something of permanence.”

    Unfortunately, vaxxed peoples’ immunity doesn’t last Forever. That’s why we NEED Herd Immunity.

    “Calling these people Rotzchim & other nasty names points to a state of paranoia that some people are experiencing right now.”

    The truth hurts doesn’t it?!?

    “Talking & texting is much more unsafe than the unvaxxed child in school, yet almost everyone does it.”
    SPEAK for YOURSELF! I don’t.

    “Speeding, overeating, alcohol, lack of sleep, are all much greater risks to life & limb than the small percentage of antivaxxers in the world”

    First of All, Who SAYS?!?
    2nd of All, Two wrongs – Don’t make a Right.

    #1617587

    Dellposs
    Participant

    Hiamy,

    I agree with wanting to eliminate the name calling. Therefore, I am surprised by your labeling the concern of others as ‘paranoia’

    Please share your medical qualifications to make the following statements:
    “The chances of you or your children catching a bacteria or virus due to the decisions of anti vaxxers is extremely unlikely. They represent a very small percentage of the population & there’s plenty of herd immunity without them.
    Even if Chas Veshalom a vaccinated person catches a sickness, it would be a much milder case & non life threatening or something of permanence.”

    #1617750

    akuperma
    Participant

    One should note that measles is one of the reasons that the languages we hear in Brooklyn belong to the Indo-European family, rather than the Algonquin family. While theoretically many Ashkenazim inherited some resistance to measles through natural selection, one might be skeptical on betting one’s life on Darwin.

    #1617784

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    If yidden can be unvaxed I’m quite certain that it is possible that their domestic workers can be as well. No racism to it, there are no vaxers across America, they are no limited by race creed or color. I asked this question because I’ve noticed that in other frum women’s groups online, vaxers are silent on the subject when questioned.

    #1617783

    Crone
    Participant

    Did anyone notice that the health dept calls measles “highly contagious” not highly dangerous.
    Measles in a child is like a bad cold with rash.
    A healthy unvaccinated child is less of a risk than a recently vaccinated child who can she the virus and infect others.
    This fear of the unvaccianted is totally irrational!

    #1617795

    Dellposs
    Participant

    Crone

    Please share your medical qualifications to make the following statement:

    ‘Measles in a child is like a bad cold with rash.”

    Thanks

    #1617796

    1
    Participant

    Crone, that doesn’t mean that kids shouldn’t get vaccinated.

    #1617811

    Haimy
    Participant

    CDC: Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps. One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella. MMR is an attenuated (weakened) live virus vaccine.

    97% effectiveness regardless of all the antivaxxers.
    Of the other 3% The chances of a healthy child becoming seriously ill is extremely low.
    Of course, I wish everyone would vaccinate & protect those who are immunosuppressed.
    For the overwhelming majority of parents there is no need to be worried about an “epidemic” any more than many other (unnecessary) risks we take in life.
    Examples:
    Swimming: every year multiple frum yidden drown in pools.
    Talking on the phone while driving: endless accidents.
    Obesity: Heart attacks, diabetes, & Cancer.
    The risk of harm from these is much greater than the antivaxxers ever could be.

    #1617812

    apushatayid
    Participant

    @bk613. “I highly doubt that this is because 50% of charedim are part of the anti-vax movement.”

    Do you attribute it to laziness? Stupidity? No access to the vaccine? Why do you think so many are not vaccinated?

    #1617813

    apushatayid
    Participant

    ‘Measles in a child is like a bad cold with rash”

    Tell it to the family whose baby died from this bad cold with a rash. Or the parents of the child in Monsey who is laying in the icu. Maybe offer some lotion for the rash.

    #1617814

    MMYHS
    Participant

    is there any proven study that anyone can show for the dangers of vaccinations
    because we see clear proofs that they work to protect people from diseases 99%
    of the time (that 1% are people that are immunosuppressed and immunocompromised)

    #1617827

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Many antivaxxers are just people who had kids, vaccinated them and found out that they don’t like their kids, and they don’t want to blame their own DNA or parenting style.

    #1617830

    bk613
    Participant

    “Do you attribute it to laziness? Stupidity? No access to the vaccine? Why do you think so many are not vaccinated?”
    While I don’t know for sure I would say lack of access. I say that because I’ve seen articles saying that the ministry of health is targeting charadi neighborhoods with mobile clinics

    #1617837

    MMYHS
    Participant

    bk613 that doesn’t explain why people in america are not vaccinating

    #1617844

    Doing my best
    Participant

    They need mobile clinics now, because the regular clinics can’t handle the volume. (and that’s also why Dr. Shaniks office in Lakewood was triple as full as a normal Friday this past Friday.)

    And now many babies even of pro-vaxxers are put at risk because the parents are afraid to take them to the doctor for their vaccines because of all the possible carriers there for shots. (And the shot takes 21 days to take affect.)
    Plus, one of the infected people in Lakewood visited NPGS, and therefore my 2 year old baby was exposed to the measles. She only had her first shot.

    I saw someone said alcohol is also the same dangerous, now i don’t know how many frum yidden have died from alcohol, but this outbreak started within four weeks ago and already a child died.
    Someone else said obesity is also the same dangerous. Well guess what, me being fat is never going to kill your kid!

    And my being vaccinated doesn’t mean i can’t catch the measles, i still have a three percent chace of getting it every time i’m exposed. That means that if i’m exposed enough times, i’ll probably get it.

    And just because measles isn’t so dangerous, something else might be. For example Pertussis, that’s very dangerous for babies. A 2 month old baby in my family almost got brain damaged or died from it, if the anti-vaxxers aren’t stopped, that might be next.

    #1617861

    jdb
    Participant

    If your child had a condition where they could not be vaccinated, or if your six month old was CV exposed to the disease because they were too young for the vaccine, you wouldn’t have the same mentality.

    There is no such thing as plenty of herd immunity. Herd immunity requires near 100%. The downsides to vaccination are virtually nil. Don’t be selfish and put others who cannot vaccinate at risk.

    #1617869

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I don’t think these blog discussions change any minds regarding vaccinations. Some people just have made up their mind against the overwhelming views of publicly health professionals and want to deliberately put their own children at risk. That is their right but don’t ask the rest of us to incur any higher risk by being around them and their kids. Keep them at home or start your own schools for anti-vaxers but don’t you dare bring them into a public venue.

    #1617860

    sammyb
    Participant

    @Rebyid23
    Are you for real. This is one of the most asinine comments of all time. Most people that are anti-vaxxers is due to side effects caused by vaccines.

    #1617886

    bk613
    Participant

    @mmyhs It wasn’t supposed to.

    #1617897

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Vaccination in Israel is actually quite accessible (and free) through Tipat Chalav, the well baby clinic. No need to sit in a Dr’s office exposing baby to sick kids. From almost birth until age 2 or so, parents take their babies there for periodic check-ups, monitoring growth and developmental milestones, and vaccinations according to the set schedule. Every neighborhood has them. It’s just a matter of remembering to show up for the appointment, taking the time from work or whatever to go. Afterwards, the boosters are done in school. They even started to give flu shots to the younger grades – something I never bothered with for my kids when it involved a trip to the clinic, since my kids have B”H not gotten the flu in the past and by the time I usually remember, the season is mostly over.

    I suspect the high non-vaccination rate is due partly to ignorance and partly to the attitude of “hakol yehiye b’seder” and partly to the very busy lives of parents raising large families. Less exposure to media means less knowledge on medical issues in general (they are not reading all the scary stories out there on the internet and in parenting magazines), there are those who don’t even get the frum papers. And Israelis have sort of become used to relying on miracles for survival, hence the “hakol yehiye B’seder” (all will be well) attitude. This also explains why I so often see young children crossing streets by themselves or riding in cars without seat belts and car seats. It’s not because their parents don’t love their kids, it’s because they may not be fully informed of or think about the dangers so they just do what is most convenient and not necessarily what is smart or requires a bit more hishtadlus.
    I don’t know if these factors apply to America.

    #1617906

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    +1 Toi
    +2 Chasid

    I do want to just say I highly doubt 50 percent of chareidim in Jerusalem do not vaccinate.
    I mean, I don’t know the entire population but I know hundreds of people and I have only met 1 family who are against medical science entirely. Everyone else I know vaccinates.

    Perhaps I’m just not invited to the super secret anti -vacc meetings they hold under the kosel late at night or something.

    #1617979

    akuperma
    Participant

    Any statistics about the hareidi community, especially in Eretz Yisrael, should be “taken with a grain of sale” if they are gathered from non-hareidi sources or by non-hareidim. People don’t respond honestly to “pollsters” if they feel the pollster has an agenda they oppose, which is usually the case when seculars try to get information on hareidim.

    #1618064

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I do want to just say I highly doubt 50 percent of chareidim in Jerusalem do not vaccinate.”

    This statement is attributed to the Ministry of Health. do you suspect they have an agenda on this matter, or that they are simply ignorant of the numbers?

    It seems there are FIVE confirmed cases of measles among Israelis who are learning in the Mir in Yerushalyim. They brought in people to provide vaccinations to the bachurim and avreichim who are not vaccinated.

    #1618130

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Bulletin: Reb Chaim Kanievsky, Shlita sad this morning
    “Anyone voting for the Lakewood’s VAAD endorsed candidates is עתיד ליתן את הדין

    #1618191

    apushatayid
    Participant

    ?

    #1618218

    1
    Participant

    There’s no pro-vaccination. There are normal people who get vaccinated, and there are crazy people who are anti-Vaxxers.

    #1618361

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Perhaps all the chareidim not vaccinated are babies?
    I mean there’s a lot of them.

    I’m just surprised. I didn’t realize it was an official statistic. I wonder HOW they got their numbers…

    #1619933

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To all the fools and anti-vaxers who have posted here about the paranoia in the frum community related to the risks of not getting vaccinated, please read the kol koreh from several of the biggest gadolim and poskim in EY just posted on the breaking stories page here on YWN where they make the same point several of us have repeatedly noted on this and other threads…….you are mamah murderers by not vaccinating your kids. Specifically, they state as follows: ” Whoever isn’t vaccinated is a murderer” חסורי מחסירנן והכי גרסינן

    #1619983

    tpss
    Participant

    Yeshiva World just posted this story.
    An unvaccinated infant R”L died, and more than 1300 have been sickened”

    Does anyone know what percentage of the 1,300 people that have been sickened were vaccinated?

    I wonder the the vaccinations are really working.

    #1620464

    Health
    Participant

    tpss -“I wonder the the vaccinations are really working.”

    They work, but not alone. You also need herd immunity.

    #1621134

    Hello,my name is Rabbi Harry Zundel “Steve” Anderson. I am a Rabbi in Houston of Cong. Shofchei Lev Kamayim.I read this Tuesday in my Rebbi Zichronei L’Brocha R’Charles Levenburgs Responsa Klavim Neged Chasulim[Way of Life Chapter 1 Part 23 Small part 2] about this very topic.I translated it for the caffeinated masses.”Vaccination is a matter pertaining to itself.Its a matter of to be or not to be.Deep within a realm of sudden possibility lay the issue of vaccination an issue of mystical proportions.Etched in a stone of marble crystal,as the Tosophist sages of Northern France call it Even Shaish [First Gate,Four Father,Page 3,Side 2].Proportions so deep it reaches the tunnels of yonder,of a dream so suddenly broken.So I pondrered this pondering of great ponderings.Is it to be or not to be, but my great knowledge in all of talmudic lore did not help me to come up with a solution.So I sent this Responsa of Vaccination is it to be or not to be? to a great colleague of mine, Rabbi Dr. Andrew Sinowitz Shlita, Chief Rabbi of British Columbia,Canada and Greenland and he sent back to me great words, the likes that have not been seen since the Beatles broke in 1970.The answer lay in the mind. Spirituality is the answer to the question.[see also Responsa Moreinu Andrew Way of Life Chapter 1 Part 23 Small Part 2]

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