March 24, 2013 6:32 am at 6:32 am #608752Torah613TorahParticipant
According to the Shabbos Hagadol Drasha I went to today: Avraham Avinu served tongue with mustard. Mustard is kitniyos. Therefore Avraham Avinu was Sephardic and ate kitniyos.
(the speech was about lashon hara)March 24, 2013 6:41 am at 6:41 am #940410SaysMeMember
🙂March 24, 2013 6:46 am at 6:46 am #940411shmoolik 1Participant
is it not obvious if he was ashkenazi He would be called Avrum AvinuwitzMarch 24, 2013 7:01 am at 7:01 am #940412WIYMember
That only proves that his guests were sefardim.March 24, 2013 7:03 am at 7:03 am #940413playtimeMember
The issur of Kitniot only came about much later by the rabbisMarch 24, 2013 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #940414rebdonielMember
Hazal ate rice and gebrokts. They also say it is preferred to use romaine lettuce for marror, and did a bunch of things many don’t do.March 24, 2013 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #940415Torah613TorahParticipant
WIY: Good point.December 2, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1806668RebbeDebbieParticipant
WIY: why blame Sephardim? That’s racist.December 2, 2019 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1806717lowerourtuition11210Participant
RebeDebbie: Im not sure what you are reading. WIY is not blaming sefardim for ANYTHING. The OP made statement about Avrahom Avinu and he is contradicting it.December 2, 2019 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1806722
Look up SA O’CH 464 MB s’k 5, that mustard is ‘like’ kitniyus included in the issur but not really kitniyus.December 2, 2019 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1806751
I just noticed, the Baer Hetev 464,2 brings from the Taz that the Rokeach, an ashkanaz, allows eating mustard on Pesach provided it was not ground in a chometzdig dish.December 2, 2019 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1806781BenephraimParticipant
It was ערב פסח before חצות.I think.December 2, 2019 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1806839☕️coffee addictParticipant
“It was ערב פסח before חצות.I think.”
The malach said this time next year Avraham will have a son
And Yitzchak was born on pesachDecember 2, 2019 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1806851Sam KleinParticipant
Even if Avrohom avinu did eat kitniyos that doesn’t matter due to the fact that he lived before Kabbalas Hatorah and before the yom tov of Pesach even existed.
Even if we all know it says that Avrohom avinu kept the entire TorahDecember 2, 2019 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1806881
Don’t forget he fed the malachim basar bechalv as wellDecember 2, 2019 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1806882Little FroggieParticipant
He ate? He only served!!!December 2, 2019 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1806903
In chumash and in bava metziya it says avraham didnt eat anything – not even the mustard so he was 100 ashkenazi. The malachim….December 2, 2019 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1806901
Avraham didn’t eat the mustard etherDecember 2, 2019 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1806945
The malachim didn’t eat either. Probably because they didn’t mish.
On that note, why didn’t Avraham and Yitzchak take a plane to the Akeida?
The couldn’t get through security with a knife and fire.December 2, 2019 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1806924
Not eating mustard on Passover is like saying “you can’t say the word ‘lighter’ on Shabbat because you might come to touch a lighter and then you might come to your in a fire on Shabbat”.December 3, 2019 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1806961☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I don’t know why YO feels the need to denigrate Ashkenazi minhagim.
Although I could probably take a guess…December 3, 2019 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1806963
Take a guessDecember 3, 2019 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1807069lowerourtuition11210Participant
Yabia Omer i think the following passuk apples to your response about muktza (Koheles 1:16 מְעֻוָּ֖ת לֹֽא־יוּכַ֣ל לִתְקֹ֑ן). Based on your logic we cant say pig or bacon because we might come to eat it. Or maybe we dont have to practice the harchokos for niddah as we know we cant have relations with a niddah.
Am I to understand that sefardim do not believe in gedarim? Let us understand that kitniyot is not a 20th or 21st century issur but dates back to the kadmonim. Hamon Am was not well versed in the torah so the chachamim placed many safeguards so as to avoid problems. Since it was easy to confuse one type of flour with another and chametz is an issur kares a safefguard was put in place. The fact that the sephardic community did not need these safeguards could very well be that Rice and other kitniyot were never mixed with the 5 grains whereas in other communities it was common.(See MB Siman 453 SK 6).December 3, 2019 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1807271
No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??December 4, 2019 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1807326iacisrmmaParticipant
YA: What Mustard do you think it was referring to? our mustard? or mustard in its original form which is a seed that is ground into powder similar to sesame seeds. Just like sesame seeds were included so was mustard seeds.December 4, 2019 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1807337
Adam Harishon was a veganDecember 4, 2019 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1807339ToiParticipant
Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…December 4, 2019 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1807367
You mean Esav would’ve been named Avraham. He was first.December 4, 2019 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1807357lakewhutParticipant
He new how to differentiate between grainsDecember 4, 2019 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1807406DovidBTParticipant
There’s also nothing mentioned about checking the p’ri ha’eitz for bugs.December 4, 2019 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1807423MDGParticipant
“Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…”
The Tanaiim named after living grandparents.
Between Hillel and Rebbi Hakadosh there is Gamliel and Shimon leapfrogging over 4 or 5 generations.
Rebbi Yishmael Ben Elisha was named after his grandfather, Yishmael Ben Elisha the Kohen Gadol.December 4, 2019 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1807527
No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??
It was not extended “even further”. There is a common belief that the original takanah was to forbid specific named species, but there is no basis for this belief in any pre-20th century source. Every pre-20th century posek, as far as I know without exception, says that the takanah was against all species that fit the criteria, and one of those criteria is that all species that grow in pods are forbidden. Therefore, since mustard grows in pods, it is forbidden. End of story.December 4, 2019 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1807617
Uh oh. Cacao beans grow in pods. No more chocolate on Pesach.December 4, 2019 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1807566
It’s a sign of respect to name after one’s living parents. Can you think of a greater source of Kibud and of Nachas?December 4, 2019 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1807638iacisrmmaParticipant
YA: According to sefardim; not according to the ashkenazim.December 4, 2019 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1807644
Cacao “beans” are not beans; they grow on trees. And do not really grow in pods, any more than pomegranates do.December 4, 2019 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1807685AhvasChinomParticipant
Another proof Avram/Avraham’s family was Sefaradi: Nachor was named after his GF (Even if he wasn’t first)December 4, 2019 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1807944
Not ALL Sefardim name after the living.December 4, 2019 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1807942
Milhouse, the thing that contains the cacao beans is called a pod. The thing that contains pomegranate arils is not. If, as you say, the criterion for kitniyos is that the seeds grow in a pod, please explain why corn (maize) and sunflower seeds are kitniyos.December 5, 2019 7:04 am at 7:04 am #1807994knafaymParticipant
Actually I’m more inclined to believe that A”A zatzal would abhore the entire concepts of Ashkenazi and Sepharadi especially the way they have been weaponized which btw is Over Lo Tisgodidu. So the joke running through this thread is the dust of an Issur DiOraisa.December 5, 2019 7:16 am at 7:16 am #1807993
What it’s called is irrelevant; what matters is what it is. The thing is clearly not a pod, it’s exactly the same as a pomegranate’s rind. That English-speakers call it a pod is no more relevant than the fact that they call the seed a bean.
Growing in a pod is not the only criterion. It is sufficient but not necessary. Rice and buckwheat are both kitniyos because they are cooked as porridge, which after all is the reason for the takanah in the first place.December 5, 2019 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1808027devnyBlocked
What a great proof. You’ve completely convinced me. I will now become sephardic.December 5, 2019 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1808068
Correction: What something is called can be relevant, but does not define what it is. For instance, the whole takanah of kitniyos was made in the first place because all kinds of cooked grains are called “porridge” (דייסא in Aramaic, קאשע in Yiddish), so if a rice or lentil porridge is permitted then people will think all porridge is, including wheat or barley porridge. So they forbade anything with which porridge is made. And since many of those things grow in pods they forbade everything that grows in pods. But that doesn’t mean that when someone comes along and sees a pomegranate or a cacao fruit and says “Hey, let me call that a pod”, the takanah automatically extends itself to that! Now if people started calling chocolate “porridge”, then we’d have a serious shayla; but they don’t, so we don’t.December 5, 2019 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1808371
People make porridge out of sunflower seeds?December 7, 2019 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1808583
No, but sunflower seeds grow in pods.December 7, 2019 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1808585
Is mustard a legume?December 7, 2019 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1808591
Sunflower seeds do not grow in pods. Check out a Youtube video on harvesting sunflower seeds if you don’t believe me.December 8, 2019 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1808649
Mentioned above the Rokeach who says mustard is allowed for Pesach provided not ground in a dish of chometz.
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