Proof Avraham Avinu Ate Kitniyos

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  • #608752

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    According to the Shabbos Hagadol Drasha I went to today: Avraham Avinu served tongue with mustard. Mustard is kitniyos. Therefore Avraham Avinu was Sephardic and ate kitniyos.

    (the speech was about lashon hara)

    #940410

    SaysMe
    Member

    馃檪

    #940411

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    is it not obvious if he was ashkenazi He would be called Avrum Avinuwitz

    #940412

    WIY
    Member

    Torah

    That only proves that his guests were sefardim.

    #940413

    playtime
    Member

    The issur of Kitniot only came about much later by the rabbis

    #940414

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Hazal ate rice and gebrokts. They also say it is preferred to use romaine lettuce for marror, and did a bunch of things many don’t do.

    #940415

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    WIY: Good point.

    #1806668

    RebbeDebbie
    Participant

    WIY: why blame Sephardim? That’s racist.

    #1806717

    RebeDebbie: Im not sure what you are reading. WIY is not blaming sefardim for ANYTHING. The OP made statement about Avrahom Avinu and he is contradicting it.

    #1806722

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look up SA O’CH 464 MB s’k 5, that mustard is ‘like’ kitniyus included in the issur but not really kitniyus.

    #1806751

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I just noticed, the Baer Hetev 464,2 brings from the Taz that the Rokeach, an ashkanaz, allows eating mustard on Pesach provided it was not ground in a chometzdig dish.

    • This reply was modified 6 days, 17 hours ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 6 days, 17 hours ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    #1806781

    Benephraim
    Participant

    It was 注专讘 驻住讞 before 讞爪讜转.I think.

    #1806839

    鈥淚t was 注专讘 驻住讞 before 讞爪讜转.I think.鈥

    The malach said this time next year Avraham will have a son

    And Yitzchak was born on pesach

    #1806851

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Even if Avrohom avinu did eat kitniyos that doesn’t matter due to the fact that he lived before Kabbalas Hatorah and before the yom tov of Pesach even existed.

    Even if we all know it says that Avrohom avinu kept the entire Torah

    #1806881

    Yukel face
    Participant

    Don鈥檛 forget he fed the malachim basar bechalv as well

    #1806882

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    He ate? He only served!!!

    #1806903

    Yukel face
    Participant

    In chumash and in bava metziya it says avraham didnt eat anything – not even the mustard so he was 100 ashkenazi. The malachim….

    #1806901

    Yukel face
    Participant

    Avraham didn鈥檛 eat the mustard ether

    #1806945

    yehudayona
    Participant

    The malachim didn’t eat either. Probably because they didn’t mish.

    On that note, why didn’t Avraham and Yitzchak take a plane to the Akeida?

    The couldn’t get through security with a knife and fire.

    #1806924

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Not eating mustard on Passover is like saying “you can’t say the word ‘lighter’ on Shabbat because you might come to touch a lighter and then you might come to your in a fire on Shabbat”.

    #1806961

    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    I don’t know why YO feels the need to denigrate Ashkenazi minhagim.

    Although I could probably take a guess…

    #1806963

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Take a guess

    #1807069

    Yabia Omer i think the following passuk apples to your response about muktza (Koheles 1:16 诪职注只讜旨指謻转 诇止纸讗志讬讜旨讻址郑诇 诇执转职拽謶止谉). Based on your logic we cant say pig or bacon because we might come to eat it. Or maybe we dont have to practice the harchokos for niddah as we know we cant have relations with a niddah.
    Am I to understand that sefardim do not believe in gedarim? Let us understand that kitniyot is not a 20th or 21st century issur but dates back to the kadmonim. Hamon Am was not well versed in the torah so the chachamim placed many safeguards so as to avoid problems. Since it was easy to confuse one type of flour with another and chametz is an issur kares a safefguard was put in place. The fact that the sephardic community did not need these safeguards could very well be that Rice and other kitniyot were never mixed with the 5 grains whereas in other communities it was common.(See MB Siman 453 SK 6).

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49627&st=&pgnum=95

    #1807271

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??

    #1807326

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    YA: What Mustard do you think it was referring to? our mustard? or mustard in its original form which is a seed that is ground into powder similar to sesame seeds. Just like sesame seeds were included so was mustard seeds.

    #1807337

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Adam Harishon was a vegan

    #1807339

    Toi
    Participant

    Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would’ve been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time…

    #1807367

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    You mean Esav would’ve been named Avraham. He was first.

    #1807357

    lakewhut
    Participant

    He new how to differentiate between grains

    #1807406

    DovidBT
    Participant

    There’s also nothing mentioned about checking the p’ri ha’eitz for bugs.

    #1807423

    MDG
    Participant

    “Proof the Avos were ashkenazim. If they were sfardim Yaakov would鈥檝e been named Avraham. Cracks me up every time鈥”

    The Tanaiim named after living grandparents.
    Between Hillel and Rebbi Hakadosh there is Gamliel and Shimon leapfrogging over 4 or 5 generations.
    Rebbi Yishmael Ben Elisha was named after his grandfather, Yishmael Ben Elisha the Kohen Gadol.

    #1807527

    Milhouse
    Participant

    No problem but why extend it EVEN FURTHER to mustard??

    It was not extended “even further”. There is a common belief that the original takanah was to forbid specific named species, but there is no basis for this belief in any pre-20th century source. Every pre-20th century posek, as far as I know without exception, says that the takanah was against all species that fit the criteria, and one of those criteria is that all species that grow in pods are forbidden. Therefore, since mustard grows in pods, it is forbidden. End of story.

    #1807617

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Uh oh. Cacao beans grow in pods. No more chocolate on Pesach.

    #1807566

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    It’s a sign of respect to name after one’s living parents. Can you think of a greater source of Kibud and of Nachas?

    #1807638

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    YA: According to sefardim; not according to the ashkenazim.

    #1807644

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Cacao “beans” are not beans; they grow on trees. And do not really grow in pods, any more than pomegranates do.

    #1807685

    AhvasChinom
    Participant

    Another proof Avram/Avraham鈥檚 family was Sefaradi: Nachor was named after his GF (Even if he wasn鈥檛 first)

    #1807944

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Not ALL Sefardim name after the living.

    #1807942

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Milhouse, the thing that contains the cacao beans is called a pod. The thing that contains pomegranate arils is not. If, as you say, the criterion for kitniyos is that the seeds grow in a pod, please explain why corn (maize) and sunflower seeds are kitniyos.

    #1807994

    knafaym
    Participant

    Actually I鈥檓 more inclined to believe that A鈥滱 zatzal would abhore the entire concepts of Ashkenazi and Sepharadi especially the way they have been weaponized which btw is Over Lo Tisgodidu. So the joke running through this thread is the dust of an Issur DiOraisa.

    #1807993

    Milhouse
    Participant

    What it’s called is irrelevant; what matters is what it is. The thing is clearly not a pod, it’s exactly the same as a pomegranate’s rind. That English-speakers call it a pod is no more relevant than the fact that they call the seed a bean.

    Growing in a pod is not the only criterion. It is sufficient but not necessary. Rice and buckwheat are both kitniyos because they are cooked as porridge, which after all is the reason for the takanah in the first place.

    #1808027

    devny
    Participant

    What a great proof. You’ve completely convinced me. I will now become sephardic.

    #1808068

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Correction: What something is called can be relevant, but does not define what it is. For instance, the whole takanah of kitniyos was made in the first place because all kinds of cooked grains are called “porridge” (讚讬讬住讗 in Aramaic, 拽讗砖注 in Yiddish), so if a rice or lentil porridge is permitted then people will think all porridge is, including wheat or barley porridge. So they forbade anything with which porridge is made. And since many of those things grow in pods they forbade everything that grows in pods. But that doesn’t mean that when someone comes along and sees a pomegranate or a cacao fruit and says “Hey, let me call that a pod”, the takanah automatically extends itself to that! Now if people started calling chocolate “porridge”, then we’d have a serious shayla; but they don’t, so we don’t.

    #1808371

    yehudayona
    Participant

    People make porridge out of sunflower seeds?

    #1808583

    Milhouse
    Participant

    No, but sunflower seeds grow in pods.

    #1808585

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Is mustard a legume?

    #1808591

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Sunflower seeds do not grow in pods. Check out a Youtube video on harvesting sunflower seeds if you don’t believe me.

    #1808649

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Mentioned above the Rokeach who says mustard is allowed for Pesach provided not ground in a dish of chometz.

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