Proper Etiquette or Against Halacha?

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  • #773638

    cshapiro
    Member

    imho, the fact that ur asking is because it obviously bothers u….maybe u shouldnt date such yeshivish guys, or just lower ur expectations!?!?!

    #773640

    SilentOne
    Member

    I am no Posek, but the idea that a man should not walk behind a women almost certainly is TOTALLY irrelevant when just walking through a doorway. It means that in the street, a man should walk in a path that is not behind a women. No one said that a man has the right to be rude and not hold the door or jump into the doorway first. To think that Chazal would tell us to do something rude is unconscionable. It is warped thinking and if that is how the fellow will be, let someone else have him as their husband – you don’t want to go near such a person. The ways of the Torah are “Darchei Noam”. The Gedolei HaDor always truly knew/know how to be gentlemen above everything else.

    #773641

    hanib
    Participant

    Not a problem in my neighborhood since we teach gemara to women ;).

    lol!

    does that mean then that the woman knows the halacha so she’s not upset or is she then a talmid chacham in her own right and so should go in first? 😉

    #773642

    Pac / Man
    Member

    Silent: It is not rude for a man to go before a woman. That is the Torah way. The other way is the goyish way.

    #773643

    It is not inherently rude to not hold open the door, it just has to do with societal expectations.

    #773644

    aries2756
    Participant

    “I don’t know why you assume that someone who is makpid on this halacha would only be makpid while on a date. “

    DY, once again it was not i who made this assumption. It is you who are making assumptions. I simply implied that a bochur should be careful of his manners and not act like a “jerk” again meaning watch their manners on a date. Again to be careful not to come off looking like a “jerk” on a date to someone who does NOT understand what he is doing. I did not say anything against following halacha. My question was does HE always follow this halacha or was he just being Makpid on the date. My point being that if he was not always makpid dating was NOT the appropriate opportunity to follow this halacha since it might be misunderstood as him NOT having manners and it would be a turn off for the girl because of the miscommunication. HOWEVER, I did say that if this was his normal practice by all means he should be himself and do what was normal for him.

    I hope I have made this dummy proof for all who did NOT understand me before and for all who took it upon themselves to say that I trample on halacha and so on. I suggest that a bochur not be a hypocrite and start following this halacha in the dating process if he is not normally makpid in this halacha. Can I be more clear than this. Should I give more examples? If he followed a woman into the bank earlier that day and did not open the door for the date but chose to go in before her because his Rebbe told him to that evening then he is a hypocrite.

    So when I said he should be himself that means if he always is makpid he should continue to be. So are we on the same page? Are we in agreement on this? Is there a reason to argue? Did we not say the same thing? Did I say that a bochur who follows this Halacha should NOT follow this halacha? What exactly is the nitpicking about and the argument about? What part of this did you NOT understand?

    #773645

    SilentOne
    Member

    Pac Man and Daas Yochid:

    I’ll tell you what – let us make a wager – we’ll ask a Rosh Yeshiva what is the Torah way. If your way is the Torah way, it is a great sadness. I can’t begin to tell you what a Kiddush Hashem people at work make when one holds the door open for co-workers. According to your way, you could only hold the door open for male co-workers, but not for female co-workers!

    Also – you failed to address my point that this Chazal only means when walking along a path – do not walk behind a woman; show me where it says that this Chazal also applies when going through a doorway. This behavior is boorish in any society. How much more so it is boorish to do this to a date or wife. I hope that the YWN editor will step in and put some true Torah perspective on this.

    #773646

    RabbiDoctor
    Member

    “Also – you failed to address my point that this Chazal only means when walking along a path – do not walk behind a woman; show me where it says that this Chazal also applies when going through a doorway.”

    Why should would walking through a door be better than walking down a path?

    #773647

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “that training should start even before actual marriage”

    Daas Yochid – “Is that true for the ?????? ????? part as well?’

    Care to explain?

    #773648

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA, why would you think that was directed at you?

    It is irrelevant whether it was directed at me personally. It was directed at people who do the actions you describe.

    And this is not about being offended. It is about your assuming that people who only keep halacha some of the time are doing it for bad motives even when they are keeping it.

    #773649

    aries,

    You didn’t address my points.

    I’ll make one more. Let’s say a certain bochur does not normally follow this halacha. Should he then do an aveirah on a date as well?

    SilentOne,

    I haven’t researched this halachah well enough know the exact parameters. If you read my posts carefully, I never said it’s definitively assur, I only addressed whether it should be disregarded, if it would be assur, because of society’s rules.

    cherrybim,

    My point was that since it’s obvious that not all of that halacha in the Ramba”m is applicable to dating, your assumption that there is automatically some type of “chinuch” practice involved is flawed.

    #773650

    Toi
    Participant

    Hi everyone I’m new here and also recently engaged.I held the door every time by pulling it open and walking through and holding it with my hand stretched out behind me. My kallah let me go first because she knew the halachah. I don’t see why it’s so difficult…

    #773651

    Pac / Man
    Member

    Toi: Did your Kallah ever hold open the door for you (and sometimes you for her)? Or did you always do the holding? If the latter, did you consider it rude of her for not holding the door open for you? If not, would you have considered it any more rude of yourself to not hold the door?

    #773652

    Toi
    Participant

    Pac man: I think I did all the holding and I don’t think it’s rude. this way we were able to follow all etiquite and still comply with halachah. btw how do u do the subtitle thing under your name

    #773653

    cherrybim
    Participant

    You have to use some brains; whatever can be applicable, is. And indeed, you can also have legitimate feelings of love for your beshert, even prior to marriage.

    #773654

    Pac-Man
    Member

    It is “etiquette” for the guy to hold the door for her, but it is not “etiquette” for her to hold it for him? Why?

    #773655

    Pac-Man
    Member

    And when is this how etiquette works? Only for the girl you date? For every girl who comes into your office? A husband must always open the door for his wife for their entire marriage to fulfill his etiquette responsibilities? And in all of the above cases a girl has no etiquette duty to open for a guy?

    #773656

    Toi
    Participant

    the truth is that you are right. unfortunately some goyishe ideas about how this process works have crept into what is considered the norm.basing the choice of your lifetime parnter on door-holding is dumb. but thats life. so i see no reason to stretch these practices to compell the girl to hold open a door too

    #773657

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Joseph – “It is “etiquette” for the guy to hold the door for her, but it is not “etiquette” for her to hold it for him? Why?”

    For the same reason that the choson escorts his kallah into his home, the chuppa, and not the other way around. It’s proper and b’kovedik.

    #773658

    Pac-Man
    Member

    cherrybim – The Kalla’s mother and MIL (or father) escort her to the Chupa, not the Choson.

    And who does this so-called etiquette apply to? Every girl coming into your office or only your date? And must a husband open the door for his wife every time they both go through a door, throughout their marriage?

    #773659

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “The Kalla’s mother and MIL (or father) escort her to the Chupa, not the Choson.”

    Wrong. They escort until the chuppa and the choson, who is there first, brings her into his home, which is the chuppa.

    #773660

    shlishi
    Member

    cherry: Are you speaking of Sephardic Chupa’s where the Choson comes out when the Kallah arrives? That doesn’t occur in Ashkenazic Chupa’s.

    But either way it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. There he is taking her into his reshus. Here she is already in his reshus.

    #773661

    cherrybim
    Participant

    It is proper for the chason to at least take some steps forward to escort hid kallah into his home; as is brought down and even many Askanazim do. And what do you mean by “Here she is already in his reshus”; the wedding rituals are symbolic of the way a Jewish home ought to be.

    #773662

    tomim tihye
    Member

    Proper etiquette in 2011 is for women to hold the door for men. And to offer seats to them on crowded subways.

    Hey, men are our employees and dependent on us for their promotions.

    #773663

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Unlike the gentile type of Titanic etiquette where the women were put on the lifeboats first, Shulchan Aruch specifically tells us we do the opposite of the goyim (and the men first go on the lifeboats.)

    #773664

    SilentOne
    Member

    Pac-Man: Please provide the Simun in Shulchan Aruch that states this Halacha.

    #773665

    Pac / Man
    Member

    SilentOne:

    Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8, as well as the Mishna in Horayis 13a, and the Rambam on that Mishna.

    #773666

    jakyweb
    Member

    Why would men go first on lifeboats? It should be according to circumstance. Who has young children or other obligations. If it is because men are worth more than women then I give up. Is the reason men do not follow women a tznius issue that men shouldn’t be watching women walking?

    #773667

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “Let’s say a certain bochur does not normally follow this halacha. Should he then do an aveirah on a date as well?” &

    “I never said it’s definitively assur”

    Could you please clarify; these statements seem to be contradictory.

    #773669

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Wait, Pacman is Joseph? Did I miss something?

    #773670

    SilentOne
    Member

    I asked a prominent Rov and he assured me that the Gemora’s statement that a man should not follow a woman applies when walking behind her (e.g. down the street) and does NOT apply to a situation where the woman (e.g. your date) walks first through a doorway and then stands aside waiting for you to join her on the other side of the doorway. According to those who want the man to walk first across the doorway and let the door close after him (or hold the door by putting their arm behind them as someone proudly posted that he did when dating), he would still see the woman walk across the doorway to join him, which would present the same problem as when the woman walked through the doorway first. So then you are forced to say that the man should turn his head opposite of the side the woman is coming from, etc. You can see how ridiculous this gets. The point is that walking behind a woman who is walking ahead of you presents a unique problem (which the Gemora forbids), one that is NOT encountered by letting the lady cross the doorway first and wait for you on the other side. No one said you have to watch her walk through the doorway while you are holding the door for her

    Also, please DO NOT quote the Halacha about men vs. women on a sinking ship with insufficient liferafts. What about the same Siman in Shulchan Aruch that says that women take precedence over men for Pidyon Shevutim and Tzedaka? Why did you “cherry-pick” and just choose the one Halacha that you believe supports your view? Also, this situation has nothing to do with holding the door for a woman to go first.

    #773671

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I guess since I hold the door open for men and women, I’m going to hell twice over, since I’m surely violating some halacha or other.

    The Wolf

    #773672

    SilentOne
    Member

    I meant to say women have precedence over men for Pidyon Shevuyim (freeing from captivity). My apologies about the spelling error. The point is you can’t just quote one Halacha (about the life and death situation) and neglect to mention the other Halachos (about Tzedaka and Pidyon Shevuyim) that don’t support your point.

    #773673

    Pac-Man
    Member

    I asked a Godol and he assured me that the Gemora’s statement that a man should not follow a woman most certainly does apply to a situation where the woman walks through a doorway, as it is clearly the case that the Shulchan Aruch rules on.

    The Gemorah (Brachos 61a & Eiruvin 18b and see Rambam Hilchos Isuurei Bi’ah 21:22, Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:1, Aruch Ha’shulchan E.H. 21:2, Otzer Haposkim 21:16:2, Sheilas Rav 1:16:4) states that if a man and woman simultaneously reach a narrow passageway the man should go first since it is improper for him to walk behind a woman. The Gemorah then adds that this Halacha applies even to a husband and wife, and Rashi (Eiruvin ibid. “afeilu”, and see Aruch Ha’shulchan ibid, Tzitz Eliezer 9:50, Divrei Yatziv E.H. 39, Sheilas Rav 1:16:5.) explains since it is unbecoming for a husband to walk behind his wife.

    The Histaklus B’halacha 4:16 specifically says one cannot walk on a bus behind a strange woman (i.e. not his wife). According to various psakim one cannot even sit behind a woman (Chut Shuni Tznius page 50 quoting the opinion of the Chazon Ish, see Oz Nedberu 10:28, Kovetz Halochos for The Summer page 52:footnote 18).

    And the reason I cited that al pi Torah you save a man’s life first, was to demonstrate that the goyish etiquette of “lady’s first” is Keneged HaTorah.

    #773674

    Could you please clarify; these statements seem to be contradictory.

    The first statement is assuming that the halacha is this way, or at least that this particular individual sees it that way.

    I personally don’t know.

    #773675

    jakyweb
    Member

    Why do you save a man’s life first? Even if she is a more worthy or needed person than him?

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