Proper Etiquette or Against Halacha?

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  • #773585

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    caninc: thanx for the clarificaion. but the thing that he should walk diagonally behind was from my HS halacha teacher (yes, HE is a rabbi)

    #773586

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    m in israel: The only halacha that has relevance to this is that a man should not walk behind a woman. Anything added on to that (i.e. Opening doors, which is somewhat related to the halacha but definitely can be done in accordance with it) is a stringency. Thus, as I stated in my first post, there is no reason a man should take this upon himself (Not opening a door) before being dedicated to observing all the mitzvos in the torah first. Obviously,for a man to walk behind a woman is wrong, is a halacha, and is NOT a stringency. I hope this clears everything up.

    It is important to know that people in different circles do different things, so what some may consider improper, others consider proper. Do what you, and your date, are most comfortable with.

    #773587

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Canine, I don’t think diagonal is a problem. In fact, the Gemara says, Yisalkena Litzdadin, that you turn sideways and it’s fine. Just imagine walking in the street and having to get ahead of every woman in the vicinity!

    #773588

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I didnt read a single reply. Apologies if I am repeating anything.

    The gemara states that a man should not walk behind a woman. I dont remember if this was a middas chassidus, a halacha or just an eitza tova. Whatever it is, there is certainly legitimacy to not walking behind a woman. When I was dating (20 years ago), I was advised to hold open the door for the girl I was with, but, to wait 3-4 seconds before entering so that I wouldnt walk in directly behind her (and the possibility also existed that once inside she would go a bit to the side and wait until I walked in too, making it so that I was not in back of her – in fact, several girls I dated walked through the door, directly to the side of the entrance so that when I walked in, they were not in front of me at all – they were well aware of this gemara too).

    #773589

    charliehall
    Participant

    I don’t know what is the halachah here, but a boy who is always rude to women he dates is not going to be getting married, so the community of Jews who follow those rulings will die out in a generation.

    #773590

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know what is the halachah here, but a boy who is always rude to women he dates is not going to be getting married, so the community of Jews who follow those rulings will die out in a generation.

    If the girls learn the same halacha, they won’t consider it rude.

    #773591

    aries2756
    Participant

    I will ask my question again. For those who do NOT hold the door open for a date since that is halacha and are NOT allowed to walk behind a woman are they careful NOT to walk behind a woman while getting on a bus, train, elevator, entering a store, etc. Or does this only apply to dates?

    My point being do not be a jerk on a date and be machmir on a halacha just because you are on a date. If you are ALWAYS machmir on that halacha then by all means be yourself.

    #773592

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    My point being do not be a jerk on a date and be machmir on a halacha just because you are on a date.

    aries: Just what do you think is motivating us to not walk behind our dates? You think we are being a “jerk”?

    You think that if I don’t walk behind my date, but I do get on a bus without waiting all day for no women to be at the bus stop, it means the reason is I am a jerk?

    You’re accusing us of being mean people for following our rebbeim and keeping halacha.

    So now who’s a jerk?

    #773593

    Eizena Kup
    Member

    charliehall:

    Highly doubt that. The Torah and its Holy ways have been around for quite thousands of years, before modern goyeshe ‘proper’ etiquette was invented. Yidden Married. Had children. Lots of them ???? ??? ???. If anything it will be the other way around!

    By the way, just wondering, did ANYONE ponder the thought ??? ?????? HaShem created a mate for adam harishon, for him to open her door, open, tuck in and close her car door, walk her to her door… AND all that before becoming husband and wife! Maybe a new mishna somewhere ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????. Let it be known, Yidden (frum ones, of course) were the most attuned to the ‘woman cause’ through all eras. Countless ????? ??”? were instituted for her benefit. No other society in history is so abundant with concern for a wife. ????? ???? ?????. I truly wonder if these concepts are prevalent in the secular society. No – a woman stands a better chance in the Torah World.

    #773594

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “????? ???? ?????. … No – a woman stands a better chance in the Torah World.”

    There’s a difference between Torah values & how they’re lived by some today.

    Spoken by a man, I’ll bet 🙂

    #773596

    tomim tihye
    Member

    Women! Don’t you treat everyone with respect? Certainly this guy you’re dating who may become your husband deserves some respect.

    So hold the door for him!

    #773597

    aries2756
    Participant

    but I do get on a bus without waiting all day for no women to be at the bus stop, it means the reason is I am a jerk?

    PBA, did your Rav give you a Heter that if there are women at a bus stop and they don’t let you on first that you are allowed to follow them on the bus? Did he say that in that case, since you would have to wait a whole day that the halacha does NOT apply? Isn’t it worse to follow a woman onto a bus since basically she is a step above you and basically your face is in her posterior?

    PBA, you are starting up with me as usual. A Halacha is a Halacha you either follow it or you don’t. You don’t pick and choose when to follow it. So yes you are a jerk if you don’t always follow it and just choose to follow it for one purpose.

    #773598

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    aries2756:

    Please, can’t you distinguish between “FOLLOWING BEHIND” and getting aboard. Even I can understand that.

    #773599

    hanib
    Participant

    charlie: lol

    daas yachid: like

    #773600

    hanib
    Participant

    aries: what daas yachid wrote is true. if i know why a guy is doing or not doing something, i won’t consider it rude.

    as you know, there are many other ways to see if someone is rude or not. and, just because someone has social etiquette, doesn’t mean he is a nice guy.

    #773601

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Aries, it’s funny how you blaim your insistence on Popa. Is it that hard for you to come to terms with the fact that he understands Halacha better than you? It is not an emotion issue. Please realize your place. There are many here who admire your opinions. I also do, where it’s obvious that you have experience. However, you must be able to recognize the limits of your expertice.

    Yes, there is a concept of Shaas Hadchak and it must be properly applied. Openning a door for someone as a show of etiquette does not qualfy. You understand that someone like Popa who spent time with Halacha and got a ‘degree’, would understand its application.

    Back to your question, the Gemara gives the option, when you’re stuck, to turn sideways. That’s how I go onto a bus. Usually though, I usually wait until a man goes behind her.

    #773602

    charliehall
    Participant

    “If the girls learn the same halacha, they won’t consider it rude.”

    Not a problem in my neighborhood since we teach gemara to women ;).

    #773603

    Shrek
    Member

    if the bochur HOPS behind the maidele instead of walking, that might get around the problem.

    of course it might create some new ones.

    just saying.

    #773604

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    aries: I’m starting up with you because you are calling me a jerk.

    Even if my actions are inconsistent, why do you assume it’s because I’m a jerk?

    Why are you so hypercritical of people who aren’t like you?

    #773605

    twisted
    Participant

    yesalkena litzdain does not mean to turn sideways. It means you the guy should track sideways and seek to pull ahead. ( the diagonal that some insist is assur.) About buses, in the holy city, forget about it. The famous Israel concept of a “line” is in full force, as if it were India where you would have to hang on the exterior. Women of all ages with just squeeze into any gaps left in the triangular line, and there is no helping being “caboosed”, unless you are an aggressive unripened -in -mussar type.

    #773606

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    sorry i got to this late,

    I remember when I was younger and a whole lot immaturish I was with yossi’s brother and sister and when I walked through a door I went first and she said “lady’s first” and I said “not in halacha” to which when we got home she asked her father and he sided with me.

    But seriously whoever made etiquiette wasn’t anyone that put shomer negiah into the equation

    #773607

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “If the girls learn the same halacha, they won’t consider it rude.”

    If the gentleman acts in a consistent manner, they won’t consider it rude.

    Many “girls” learn the same halacha & stand behind to let the men on the bus first before going down the bus aisle to the back. However, there are men who will not grant her enough space to pass through the aisle despite “excuse me”s, making it seemingly ok for a brief contact with her.

    You men here in the CR sound like the consistent ones, but there are those who are not doing it for the proper reasons.

    #773608

    Pac / Man
    Member

    coffee addict: The entire “lady’s first” idea is anathema to Yiddishkeit, and as we clearly see from this discussion it is outright against halacha.

    #773609

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I know that was my point

    #773610

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “The entire “lady’s first” idea is anathema to Yiddishkeit”

    So is onaas devorim.

    Since the likelihood of any of us being challenged with “who goes first” while we are busy typing on our electronic devices is almost nil, perhaps we as a group should be as concerned to be meticulous in our observing this halacha as well.

    #773611

    Pac / Man
    Member

    ayc: The OP challanged her date, insisting on going first. This discussion is, unfortunately, a necessary reminder of who goes first al pi Torah.

    #773612

    I wonder what the Halacha is if I were to walk backwards

    #773613

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Shrek, you can not walk diagonal on a single rope, which is what the Gemara was talking about. The Gemara was discussing the rope bridges they had in those days sometimes, where there were two ropes, one on top of the other. You walk on the bottom one while holding on to the top (for dear life).

    #773614

    aries2756
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, and you should know your place. If you go sideways, then why can’t HE go sideways after he opens the door for her?

    As far as PBA is concerned, if he mentions me personally and attacks what I said with his usual sarcasm I will respond in kind. It has nothing to do with MY accepting the halacha it has to do with him ignoring the question I posed which was what the bochur would do in other instances.

    PBA, you asked me if I would call you a “jerk” in that instance and I agreed with you that you would be. I didn’t bring up that term you did, so don’t fault me for it.

    And just as Halevi pointed out, there are ways to not be conspicuous and do the right thing both in manners and in Halacha. I mentioned counting to 10 or 5 or whatever. Take two deep breaths or walk in sideways as Halevi mentioned but there are ways that one can follow the Halacha and still show manners. And as Halevi pointed out and as I have pointed out on many occasions men learn things that women do not so the act of not opening the door for the young lady will not make him seem like a tzadik in her eyes it will make hims seem like a boy without manners. There will be a miscommunication and he will probably not get a second chance to explain himself.

    So if the bochur is NOT careful in all areas of his life in this regard, dating is NOT the first place he should apply this to. Manners on a date are very important. If they continue to date, he can explain the Halacha to the girl after the second or third date and not have to worry about it afterwards.

    #773615

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    aries2756

    Smartness runs in my family.

    I will ask my question again. For those who do NOT hold the door open for a date since that is halacha and are NOT allowed to walk behind a woman are they careful NOT to walk behind a woman while getting on a bus, train, elevator, entering a store, etc. Or does this only apply to dates?

    My point being do not be a jerk on a date and be machmir on a halacha just because you are on a date. If you are ALWAYS machmir on that halacha then by all means be yourself. (emphasis added)

    By all means, you should retract the word jerk, and I will not hold it against you.

    #773616

    BSD
    Member

    There was a bochur on a date that was so frum he introduced himself as kelikahu, called his date bat-kuh and asked for ginger kail. I’m not sure if he opened the door for her.

    Sorry this thread is too hot for me.

    #773617

    Eizena Kup
    Member

    ..Manners on a date are very important..

    Again. And again.

    But Halachah is more important.

    Should we ‘fit’ or accommodate halachah to conform to goyeshe ‘etiquette’ or perhaps just maybe accommodate etiquette to fit in to halacha? Well then. I guess this would be a litmus test for both chasan and kallah of what they’re really looking for, where they’re truly headed for.

    #773618

    kapusta
    Participant

    I wonder what the Halacha is if I were to walk backwards

    Thanks for the laugh. ?

    *kapusta*

    #773619

    Pac / Man
    Member

    aries: I’m sorry you feel halacha can be trampled on, but we Orthodox Jews don’t agree with you.

    #773620

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There was a bochur on a date that was so frum he … called his date bat-kuh

    If he was really so frum, he would have called her bas-kuh. ?

    #773621

    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, why would you think that was directed at you? Why would you choose to take that personally when I was speaking about a bachur on a date in general? Was any of this necessary? Why is it that whatever I say/write you take it personally and feel that you have to make it a personal issue between you and me? Do you just enjoy going head to head?

    You turned my general question and comment into “IF I….would I” and then you blame me and taunt me. What is the point of all this? “You think that if I don’t walk behind my date, but I do get on a bus without waiting all day for no women to be at the bus stop, it means the reason is I am a jerk?’

    YOU are intentionally sarcastic and exaggerate every issue and then wait for others to choose sides. Was this fun for you? I won’t retract the word “jerk”, I still agree with you.

    #773622

    shlishi
    Member

    A man should kindly ask the women to allow him to board the bus first. Halacha is halacha. And worst comes to worst, he can wait for the next bus, in which case he will be the first in line (since he was there for the second bus before anyone else as he was there already from the first bus), and he will be the first to board.

    #773623

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    PBA, why would you think that was directed at you?

    Because of this phrase from this post?

    “So yes you are a jerk”

    Proper Etiquette or Against Halacha?

    It sure sounded like you were calling him one;

    you probably didn’t mean it, so you should explain that.

    #773624

    cherrybim
    Participant

    The halacha also states that a man should be mechabeid ishto yoseir migufo (honoring your wife more than you honor yourself); and that training should start even before actual marriage. Anyone who doesn’t have the decency nor desire to hold the door open for his potential future wife is not worthy of her hand in marriage.

    #773625

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The din of not walking behind a woman is specificly 4 Amos (as not to be in her “space”)(for those who are Makpid on it). So a simple solution would be to open & follow after a slight delay.

    Anyway, do you respect him knowing that he has a good reason why he did what he did? If so, then what is the difference?

    #773626

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    According to halacha, a man should not walk behind a woman.

    According to custom/manners a guy should hold the door open for a woman.

    They are contradictory points. If a date is choosing to be makpid – see if it carries through in other areas of tznius (since that is what it’s all about). If he is polite and mannerly in other ways, and is consistent with his hakpados, then you can consider overlooking it. If he is being “fachnyuked” about just this prat, than maybe you/he need to reconsider what his actions mean.

    #773627

    Pac / Man
    Member

    How many feet is 4 amos?

    And what do you mean by “for those who are makpid on it”? That should be the same group who are “makpid” on kashrus.

    #773628

    cherrybim
    Participant

    RAMBUM: ????? ?????

    ??. ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????

    #773629

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So a simple solution would be to open & follow after a slight delay.

    are you allowed to let a female pass you?

    #773630

    aries2756
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, thanks for joining. Yes I agreed with him after him asking me if I would call HIM a jerk if he did that. Please read the entire conversation. If you want to enter the fray, understand the entire controversy. I was speaking about a bochur on a date and his manners. PBA chose to make it a question about himself and if I would use that term about him if he didn’t follow the Halacha in a certain instance and I agreed with him that he would be if he chose not to follow the Halacha for his own convenience. After all Halacha IS Halacha whether it is convenient or not is that not YOUR position DY?

    edited

    #773632

    kapusta…i was laughing when I wrote it 🙂

    #773633

    bpt
    Participant

    Technicaly, he is right. But allowing a few seconds for her to get a few feet ahead would have solved the problem.

    But I would love to know how he got aroung the “yiras shomaim” issue of staring at a woman’s face for hours on end.

    My vote? He should be going on a beshow, if he’s that fa’frumpt.

    #773635

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    aries,

    I posted a link to the entire post because I am aware that it might be read differently in context, which is also why I wrote that you probably didn’t mean it that way (if you had read my entire post you would have seen that ?).

    I don’t know why you assume that someone who is makpid on this halacha would only be makpid while on a date. Even there was such a case, I still fail to see why the assumption should be made that he’s doing it specifically to be rude. I would think that if someone is makpid on something while on a date which he is not careful about otherwise, it’s because he wants to put his best foot forward, which is fine. That doesn’t justify not being careful always, but neither does it qualify the fellow as a jerk.

    I wonder what was edited – I hope it wasn’t too nasty. ?

    #773636

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    are you allowed to let a female pass you?

    To the best of my knowledge, yes.

    #773637

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    that training should start even before actual marriage

    Is that true for the ?????? ????? part as well?

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