What are the Proper Kinot to be said tommorrow 馃槶馃摃

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  • #1266979
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What Kinot should be said tommorrow, the 5th of Iyar?

    #1267429
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is tomorrow, the 5th of Iyar, a big deal?

     

    #1267436
    golfer
    Participant

    Zdad, you posted on May 1.
    And where I live it’s still Monday, May 1.
    Monday, May 1 is 5 Iyar, (which began in the final hours of April 30) so your referring to “tomorrow” as the 5th of Iyar is incorrect.
    I always thought that yom haatzmaut is 5 Iyar, but for some reason it appears that Monday is yom hazikaron and independence day is on Tuesday. I have no idea why this is so, and it appears you are confused as well. Yidden everywhere said Hallel and observed Rosh Chodesh last Wednesday & Thursday so the timing of the fifth day of the month is not open to argument.

    #1267437
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Omgosh!!! Because it’s Yom Ha’Atzmaut and some people see this as a day of mourning?

    #1267453
    mw13
    Participant

    Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen zdad open up a troll thread before.

    Is is it really not 5 iyar this year? I have to fast again tomorrow?! ;P

    But seriously, why is it pushed off?

    #1267468
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It’s pushed off to prevent chillul Shabbos. Yom Hazikaron was supposed to be Motzei Shabbos/Sunday, but they were worried that that could lead to Chillul Shabbos due to the preparations for Yom Hazikaron which start a few hours beforehand. Since Yom Hazikaron was pushed off to Sunday night/Monday, Yom HaAtzmaut had to be pushed off to Sunday night/Monday.

    They did the same thing with Yom HaShoah last week.

    #1267498
    yehudayona
    Participant

    LuL, thanks for the explanation. I thought it was because 5 Iyar is the first of BeHaB. It would be ironic if some shuls were saying selichos while others were saying Hallel.

    #1267509
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Just to add – from what I recall from the past, there were people who would still celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut on 讛 讗讬讬专 even when it was officially pushed off to 讜 讗讬讬专.

    If you say Hallel because you feel that a 谞住 happened on 讛 讗讬讬专 that requires that Hallel be said, then logically it should be said on 讛 讗讬讬专. The same would go for a Seudas Hodayah.

    Although I would imagine that there some Frum people who don’t hold that way and DO say Hallel and/or have a Seudas Hodayah on 讜 讗讬讬专.

    #1267510
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yehudayona – You’re welcome. Yeah, that would be funny. As I pointed out above, it might still happen.

    I wonder if anyone does both…

    #1267511
    Joseph
    Participant

    Why don’t they just merge it all into Yom Hatzshmut-Shoah-Zikoron?

    #1267512
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I have to fast again tomorrow?! ;P’

    That would depend why you’re fasting. Are you fasting because of the creation of the state or because of the fact that there are Yidden who think it’s a cause for celebration?

    Personally, if I were to fast, it would be because of the Israeli flag hanging two feet away from me that is making me nautious. But then I’d have to fast straight through Yom Yerushalayim, so I think I’ll pass.

    #1267515
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What you mean not everyone says Megilah Eichah and sits on the floor during Shachris?

    Fasting? I thought you are supposed to eat a Seudah with an egg

    #1267524
    147
    Participant

    It鈥檚 pushed off to prevent chillul Shabbos. because the Rabbanut haRashi are Tzadikim Gemurim who safeguard Shabbos, unlike some people in Meron who still insist on having celebrations on Motzei Shabbos which invariably leads to desecration of Shabbos R’L, instead of pushing off by 1 day, to prevent Chilul Shabbos.

    #1267534
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Now that was loshon hora. You may follow different Rabbanim than they do, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t tzaddikim. There are different opinions regarding what the best thing is to do in that case, and some feel that it would be wrong to push off laga BaOmer.

    #1267535
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Fasting? I thought you are supposed to eat a Seudah with an egg”

    That’s before shkiyah.

    #1267538
    Joseph
    Participant

    Why is there a flag near you?

    #1267554
    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    but what about people who aren’t rabbanim who want to not push off Yom Haatzmaut?

    #1267547
    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    If you have such a negative reaction to Israeli flags, you should stay away from Israel, New York and Korea.

    #1267557
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    say what? They are also following Rabbanim.

    #1267568
    Joseph
    Participant

    If you would have a negative reaction to apples, would you stay away from the Big Apple?

    #1267571
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, that might actually be a good idea. The Shoah was the greatest chillul Hashem in modern times and Yom HaZicharon and Yom HaAtzmaut represent he greatest kiddush Hashem. This will show that
    1. Hashem’s salvation comes in the blink of an eye.
    2. Kiddush Hashem erases Chillul Hashem.

    Hpwever, to answer ZD’s question, one who wants to mourn should recite the parsha of the spies followed by explanations of why they did what they did. So dfar as kinot are concerned, ask the NY Slimes to forward a question to Barghouti.

    #1267573
    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    Not necessarily. And also, different from Lag B’omer.

    #1267582
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    the last part is a typo- you meant to say yom haAtzmaut had to be pushed off to Monday night/Tuesday

    #1267588
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Chazal instituted the celebration on Lag B’Omer. Note that it literally means the 33rd day of the Omer, when R’ Akiva’s students stopped dying and the Yartzheit of R’ Shimon Bar Yochai. Celebrating it on the 34th day of the Omer is as meaningful as celebrating it in Cheshvan. Chazal have changed the day of observance at times when it may have interfered with shabbos- such as Taanis Esther pushed back to Thurs, and shushan purim on Shabbos for those in mukafim – the mitzvos that cannot be done on shabbos are done instead on either Fri or Sun. But Chazal did not feel it necessary to change Lag B’omer if it falls out on Sun, so it is very curious why the Rabbanut should feel that they know better. Just like we wait to light chanuka candles until after shabbos ends instead of the usual time, there is no reason why having bonfires motzei shabbos has to involve chilul shabbos. Those who care about shabbos will be sure to light their bonfires in a way that does not involve chilul shabbos, and those who don’t, will unfortunately be mechalel shabbos no matter when lag b’omer is. To give kids off a day of school on Lad B’Omer and encourage bonfires on Sun night is totally pointless. Meron on the other hand is an issue – in fact, the Boyaner Rebbe has pushed off the main hadlaka this year to 3 AM (I think that’s the time) to give the police etc enough time to do all the last minute preparations after shabbos ends, and the buses to bring people after shabbos ends. Other preparations can be done before shabbos. So there does not have to be any chilul shabbos and we can still keep lag b’omer the way chazal instituted it.

    #1267598
    Avi K
    Participant

    Winnie, Chazal did not initiate the observance of Lag b’Omer. In fact, the entire partial mourning of the Sefira is a minhag. The Chatam Sofer, in fact, objected to it (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14664&st=&pgnum=193 continuing to the next page) as no miracle happened and onme davka should mourn Rashbi’s death (although, actually there is no evidence for this – see “A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi鈥檚 Yahrzeit” by Eliezer Brodt). However, there is an obligation to establish a day a simcha and hoda’ah for deliverence of Am Yisrael (http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=794&st=&pgnum=146) – such as Yom HaAtzmaut.

    As for notchanging, Chazal did make Purim Meshulash when Shushan Purim falls on Shabbat. In fact, in their time there were several days on which the Megilla could be read (Mishna Megillah 1:1).

    #1267604
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The latest Paskkavill has stated

    The Gedolim have delcared it assur to call the 5th of Iyar anything except the 5th of Iyar. One must read Vayachel in the morning and put on tfillin in the afternoon

    #1267603
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Because it’s hanging out of the living room window, which is 2 feet away from the computer (actually, that ‘s an exageration – it’s probably more like 3 feet).

    #1267602
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I just don’t like it when they are in my house.

    #1267601
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Funny true story: A Chareidi friend of my mother’s was in Bank Mizrachi in Geulah on Erev Yom HaAtzmaut one year. As she finished her transaction, the teller started to say, 讞讙 砖诪讞. He then apologized and quickly corrected himself: 住诇讬讞讛, 爪讜诐 拽诇

    诪讬 讻注诪讱 讬砖专讗诇!

    #1267600
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m sure there are Rabbanim who say not to push off Yom HaAtzmaut.

    But it’s true that it’s not the same as Lag B’Omer. It’s a bit harder to “push off” Lag B’Omer from a halachic perspective.
    Not sure what point you are trying to make though?

    #1267824
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Dovid Yosef just came out and asked why Charedim cannot learn from Chilonim about postponing Lag-B’Omer

    Hagaon HaRav David Yosef Speaks Out Strongly Against Chareidim And Lag B’Omer On Motzei Shabbos

    #1267885
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    So who instituted Lag B’Omer- not the Knesset or the Rabbanut! According to all minhagim, whether partial or full, 5 Iyar is time of mourning and Lag B’omer a time off from mourning. Chasham Sofer is apparently not the accepted opinion regarding Lag B’Omer. Does the obligation of establishing a day of hodaah trump the accepted minhag and its accompanying halachos? For argument’s sake, It could have been another date- say the date of the UN vote on the partition plan- now that was a miracle! – or the date of the truce “ending” the War of Independence. 5 Iyar was actually not such a happy day- all the surrounding Arab countries declared war, threatening to destroy the new state, many people – soldiers and civilians- were killed in the war that officially started that day. Am Yisroel’s deliverance did not come on 5 Iyar, it was a political moment that was chosen because it marked Israel’s independence, not its salvation. While Religious Zionists have redefined its meaning, and B”H recognize Hashem’s role in the miracles of Israel’s founding, that really is not what Yom Haatzmaut was all about.

    If you look back at my post, I mentioned Purim Meshulash- the point was that Chazal did change things when necessary. Obviously, it was not felt necessary for Lag B’Omer.
    Of course that was before Meron became such a happening. The solution then is not to change Lag B’Omer but to change the celebrations at Meron, which as I stated, can be done and it seems will be done this year.

    #1267900
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Perhaps Rav Dovid Yosef is biased by his Sephardic traditions to observe 33 days of mourning and not to end the aveilus until the 34th of the Omer.

    #1267904
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lag Baomer isnt from Chazal
    ” it is very curious why the Rabbanut should feel that they know better.”

    They learnt from chazal who pushed off D’oraysas (shofar, Lulav) For POSSIBLE chilul shabbos Al achas kama vekama for a (relatively) new minhag that isnt deoraysa, isnt derabanon. Some opposed it it all the time should be pushed off for Vadai chilul shabbos .

    now if lighting at 3 AM works. Great! there is no problem

    #1267980
    mw13
    Participant

    It鈥檚 pushed off to prevent chillul Shabbos. Yom Hazikaron was supposed to be Motzei Shabbos/Sunday, but they were worried that that could lead to Chillul Shabbos due to the preparations for Yom Hazikaron which start a few hours beforehand

    That’s a nice gesture. Not sure how much actual chillul Shabbos it will prevent, seeing as those who would desecrate Shabbos to prepare for Yom Hazikaron probably won’t be keeping Shabbos anyways, but still a nice gesture, much like closing down the bus service on Shabbos.

    yehudayona:
    It would be ironic if some shuls were saying selichos while others were saying Hallel.

    I think somebody here once mentioned that in YU, they can sometimes end up doing both on the same day.

    WTP:
    Chazal did not feel it necessary to change Lag B鈥檕mer if it falls out on Sun, so it is very curious why the Rabbanut should feel that they know better.

    First of all, Chazal did not say Lag bi’omer had to be celebrated with a bonfire in Meron. That’s a relatively recent development, which I believe is attributed to the Arizal.

    Secondly, Lag bi’omer should not be celebrated during the night at all. The Rema explains that we observe 33 days of mourning, and on the 33rd we say mikzas ha’yom ki’kulo, and the mourning of the night counts for the whole day. So all relevant halachos pertaining to music, etc, must be observed Lag bi’omer night. The Shulchan Aruch goes further and says all relevant halachos must be observed the whole day.

    It could have been another date- say the date of the UN vote on the partition plan- now that was a miracle! 鈥 or the date of the truce 鈥渆nding鈥 the War of Independence. 5 Iyar was actually not such a happy day- all the surrounding Arab countries declared war, threatening to destroy the new state, many people 鈥 soldiers and civilians- were killed in the war that officially started that day. Am Yisroel鈥檚 deliverance did not come on 5 Iyar, it was a political moment that was chosen because it marked Israel鈥檚 independence, not its salvation.

    Fully agree. If a day should be celebrated, it should be when the war was won, not when the war began.

    #1267990
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I have a problem with pushing off Lag B’Omer, not with changing the happenings at Meron. Push it off until later, make a more restricted event when it comes out Motzei Shabbos, but you can’t change Lag to Lad.
    By the way, ubiquitin, Chazal said not to blow shofar/take lulav on shabbos, they did not push off Rosh Hashana to start on Sun 2 Tishrei instead of Shabbos. Meaning it’s Rosh Hashana, just don’t be michalel shabbos. Same for Lag B’Omer- do what you have to do to avoid chilul shabbos, but don’t “celebrate” on the wrong day!

    #1268434
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    WTP

    who said push of lag baomer?
    The issue is the bonfire “celebrate” Lag baomer whenever you want. But dont have afire that causes chilul shabbos. that is all the Rabbanut said (As far as I know). the boyaner Rebbe agrees and pushed off the fire until early AM.

    #1268503
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    just saw your post Winnie – thanks for the correction.

    #1268610
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The way some of the posters were expressing themselves, it came across sounding like the entire Lag BaOmer was being pushed off to the next day. When people talk about “pushing off Lag B’Omer”, they are referring specifically to the bonfires which they wanted to be pushed off (either to daytime or the next night – I’m not sure which).

    Some people think that it’s not a big deal – there is no chiyuv to light a bonfire on Lag B’Omer, so why not push it off if it might cause Chillul Shabbos.

    However, the counter-argument is that some people (I think certain or all Chassidic Groups) have a very strong minhag concerning lighting bonfires on the night of Lag Ba’omer. It’s not just a “fun thing to do” but a very real part of their religous practices, and they do consider it a serious thing to push it off. And they don’t feel that they should change their minhag for the sake of people who don’t keep Torah and Mitzvos who would have been mechalel Shabbos anyhow and who don’t have to be mechalel Shabbos for the sake of the bonfire (if they were Shomer Shabbos, they would just spend Shabbos in Meron. The reason they aren’t is because they aren’t shomer Shabbos anyhow and they would be mechalel Shabbos either way).

    Someone I know had the argument that it’s no different than people going to the Kosel on Shabbos which causes a need for security forces who are also mechalel Shabbos (by driving in on Shabbos, etc.).

    I’m not taking sides here as I don’t feel qualified to do so. I just think that it’s important for people to realize there are two sides to the issue and they shouldn’t be so quick to judge. There are probably other factors involved that I don’t know about which is even more of a reason that no one should be judging.

    Regarding the Boyaner Rebbe pushing off the bonfires to 3:00 AM, I’m not sure if that was what the Rabbanut was calling for originally. They may have been asking that no bonfires be lit at night at all, and that may be what people were taking issue with. In the above article, it mentions 4:00 AM. 4:00 AM is not 3:00 AM. 4:00 AM is practically daytime halachically, and perhaps they were concerned that by the time they really start, it really will be daytime.

    So 3:00 AM may have been a compromise position on both sides.

    #1268694
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant
    #1268766
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I guess I still don’t have the link thing downpat – I’ll try again:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14370&st=&pgnum=41

    #1268806
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sorry, I’m still having trouble with the link thing. The above quote was from Yekke2 – see link below

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kabbalas-loshon-horo/page/2/#post-1259177

    His source was:

    Kabbalas Loshon Horo

    #1268922
    Avi K
    Participant

    Winnie, a baal berit does not mourn during to Sefira. On Yom HaAtzmaut were are all baalei berit.

    LU, the point about chillul Shabbat on Lag b’Omer is that <b>celebrants</b> would be mechallel Shabbat to get to Meron. As for lighitng bonfires being “a very real part of their religious practices”, are stealing wood and making the engihbors sick form smoke inhalation also religious practices?

    #1268923
    Avi K
    Participant

    As for “爪讜诐 拽诇” I would have said “爪讜诐 诪砖诪注讜转讬” – he should do teshuva for anti-Zionism and then fast again for fasting on Yom HaAtzmaut . The funniest part is that all of the hilarious posters observe the Rabbanut’s day

    #1268926
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    If Lag BOmer is not being “officially” pushed off, why are governmental schools off on Mon 19 Iyar, Lad B’Omer?

    #1269510
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Do they have school on Sunday?

    #1269536
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “And they don鈥檛 feel that they should change their minhag for the sake of people who don鈥檛 keep Torah and Mitzvos who would have been mechalel Shabbos anyhow ”

    Beseder. However it does expose them as phony’s when they protest busses and cinemas being open on Shabbos. Either chilul Shabbos done by those who “would have been mechalel Shabbos anyhow” affects them somehow and is their concern or it isnt. Only caring about it when it doesnt interrupt your fun activity (and lol at ” a very real part of their religous practices,”) makes it thier general concern look a bit phony.

    #1269564
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    1. Who is “they”? Who said it’s the same people?

    2. It’s not lol at “a very real part of their religious practices”. My understanding is that they have very strong minhagim about bonfires. And you are the one who is always so into keeping ones’ minhagim!

    3. It doesn’t make them phonies at all. They want people to keep Shabbos. That doesn’t mean that they have to disrupt their minhagim for people to keep Shabbos. And in any case, these people aren’t keeping Shabbos anyhow. If they were, there wouldn’t be an issue.

    I am not taking sides here. I am not qualified to. I just wish people could be “dan l’kaf zchus” and understand that there could be two sides to the issue (and that they are also not qualified to take sides).

    #1269571
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    And to give an example of something somewhat similiar: I once accidentally took the wrong bus on Erev Yomtov. Instead of ending up in Yerushalayim, I ended up in some random city that I’d never even heard of. The only way I had to get to Yerushalayim at that point was by taking a taxi.

    I made a calculation and figured out that if the taxi speeded the whole way there and back, it was theoretically possible that he could make it back before shkiya. I asked someone who said that I was allowed to do so.

    I think there was a very good chance that the taxi driver was mechalel Shabbos since he had no reason to speed back home (unless he was Shomer Shabbos which is possible, but it was more likely that he wasn’t), and I’m not even 100% sure he could have made it back with speeding. I was not comfortable with this and would not have done it if not for the fact that I really could not imagine spending YomTov in a random not-Frum city where I did not know anyone. And I was told it was okay. And the possibility existed that he was not mechalel Shabbos.

    I have always felt bad about it, but I really couldn’t imagine doing things any different.

    #1269573
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    And there is another really important point here. I think this may be the most important point of all. While it’s really nice that people are so concerned about Shmiras Shabbos, and of course Shabbos is very important, I think that if we all judged each other favorably and spoke positively about each other, that would do more to bring the Geulah. (and then everyone will be keeping Shabbos in any case).

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