Proposing

I proposed by making a scrapbook of our time together and at the end of the scrapbook there was a page that said “will you marry me?” with check boxes for yes and no. The “no” box was shaped like a square and the “yes” box was shaped like a ring. I handed him a pen and he checked off “yes” (but not before going through a bunch of legalism about whether or not I had jurisdiction over him– luckily I appreciate his sense of humor!)

It wasn’t a surprise because we both knew we were going to get engaged, so he had the ring with him. Interestingly enough, he is makpid that traditional proposals are too similar to kiddushin. He took out the ring, put it down and declared it hefker, and then I picked it up and put it on my finger. The whole thing was really adorable and it’s a memory that I’ll treasure forever.

How about just something sweet and personal? I think the one knee thing is kind of hollywood movieish, and your knees will get all dirty! Write a poem, watch fireworks at night, write words on a cake…possiblities are endless! As a girl though, I would want more thought involved than flashiness…think what she likes and what she would like to happen, maybe she’s the type to want bended knee? If she does, the halachic shailos are between you and your rav.

Getting on one knee is an Issur D’oraisa of Chukas Akum.

I didn’t know that. I’ll have to find a new way to tie my shoes, I suppose.

Interesting story: Eeees and I had been dating for a while, but neither of us were yet ready to get married. Nonetheless, one day, I was in her kitchen and she had her back to me. I said to her “Eeees, I need to ask you something.” At the same time, I had bent down (and got down on one knee) to tie my shoes. She thought I was going to propose at that moment, but the question I intended to ask was completely unrelated (I knew we weren’t ready to get married yet).

We still like to joke about that many years later. When I did actually propose, it was not on one knee.

The Wolf

golfer, cute black-hat line

Wolf, that’s funny!

Let me rephrase: Getting on one knee to propose is an Issur D’oraisa of Chukas Akum.

Just smile: What you say is not entirely accurate. If there are two male friends present when you propose then that probably does constitute Kiddushin, even if you don’t have explicit Da’as “L’sheim Kiddushin”. Look up EH 26 (maybe 27?).

“The irony is the legalism about whether or not you had jurisdiction over him and your username. Halchically it is him having jurisdiction over you not visa versa, it would sound more like you should have run the legalism.”

It was secular legalism (my husband is a law student) and my “jurisdiction” over him was because I was proposing.

Sam2

I repeat that theres no such issur deoraysoh regarding proposing. I would like you to provide one source.

Sam2 – 100% incorrect – If giving something worth a shava pruta to a woman in front of two men while not at all intending to marry them at the time is kiddushin – then I better tell my daughter not to go shopping with a male cashier

jewishfeminist02 – I know – I got it – it was simply ironic – I thought it was cute – that’s all

Proposals almost certainly count as those situations.

Except that you’re missing one important part — intent.

The chosson knows that he’s going to do an actual kiddushin later by the chuppah and that he doesn’t mean for this to be a kiddushin.

The kallah knows that she’s going to receive a ring for kiddushin under the chuppah and that this isn’t an actual kiddushin.

The people viewing the event know that there will be an actual kiddushin under the chuppah and that the engagement ring is not being given l’shem kiddushin.

Since everyone involved knows that this is not an actual kiddushin, it seems fairly clear that giving an engagement ring (as is commonly done these days) is not an actuall ma’aseh kiddushin.

The Wolf

But genuflection has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with proposals…

If in communion ceremonies they have wine can I not make kiddush?

What does one have to do with the other?

WIY: Maybe show them the Wikipedia article on genuflection then ask if they still think it’s not a problem? You don’t need to find a Rov who knows of the Goyish concept. If you tell a Rov about the concept (and he believes you) then he should be able to decide whether it falls under Chukas Akum or no.

Writersoul: Getting on one knee as a means of supplication (and you are asking someone to marry you) without a doubt in my mind constitutes an Assur form of genuflection.

Wolf: I think I once made that same claim (that a proposal isn’t Kiddushin because it’s D’varim Sheb’leiv Uv’leiv Kol Adam). In fact, I think I made it in the CR. I’ll have to think about this more. It could be that you are right.

Bookworm: Getting down on 2 knees as a form of worship is a separate Issur.

You can’t just “think that someone is right” that something is assur. That’s not how halacha works. You have to learn the sugya to have an opinion. Emotional decisions like that will put you in danger of following something that just isnt yiddisheit. Learn what the halacha has to say, define what the factors are, then make a decision as to if this case falls into the category of issurim.

The christian practice is to get on one knee, not two knees. So it is like their practice.

“You can’t just ‘think that someone is right’ that something is assur. That’s not how halacha works.”

No, you can’t make up a psak, but I don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use that phrase. Most people B”H have learned a fair amount of halacha and if someone asks them something, they will say “yes, I think so” if they don’t remember exactly. That doesn’t mean they made it up; it means that at one point they did learn the sugya and it’s just not so fresh in their minds anymore.

WIY: I don’t know who Rabbi Becher is but I will assume he is a Talmid Chacham. The Poskim (YD 179 I think) say that any practice that started with an Avodah Zarah remains Assur. Even if the Makor is Persian or Alexandrian as Wikipedia states, it is still an Assur practice because it stems from religious reasons (even if the origin wasn’t religious itself the widespread practice-from where kneeling while proposing comes today-is indeed a church practice). And even aside from that, the Gra holds that anything done Stam by non-Jews gains a D’oraisa-level Issur of Chukas Akum if there’s no obvious logical reason for it. (The Minhag in America doesn’t seem to be to be Machmir like this Gra, though, as the major Nafka Mina is ties and most Frum people in America wear ties. I may have quoted here earlier a second reason that a tie is meant to represent a cross. Apparently, that is a myth with no historical basis.)

Getzel, while we don’t expect you to be an expert on Catholic religious practice, FYI, Catholics genuflect on both knees, not only one. Further, genuflection is not specifically a Christian practice. Moslems do it five times a day and no one thinks Islam is avodas zora. For goodness sake, WE do it on Yom Kippur in remembrance of the avodah in the Beis Hamkdash.. If anything, the Christians and the Moslems got it from us.

Redleg, you’re mixing up Catholic worshiping on two knees, which is their typical way of worship, and their separate and distinct (and much less frequent) rite of genuflecting on one knee, which is where this one knee idea comes from (for the past 500+ years.) Muslims do it on two knees not one. And we don’t do it on one knee on Yom Kippur.

i dont know much about it from the halachic point of view, but i know plenty of people who have gotten down on one knee that are completely frum and very learned. plus, getting down on one knee is romantic, and who says we cant be romantic sometimes?