Pruzbul, shmitta, debt elimination and theft

Home Forums Bais Medrash Pruzbul, shmitta, debt elimination and theft

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #616059
    Joseph
    Participant

    How does halacha specify that shmitta (without the debtor having made a pruzbul) does not eliminate debt resulting from theft even though it does eliminates debt resulting from a loan?

    #1100135
    pcoz
    Member

    Debt resulting from a theft is not a debt, it’s repayment of the theft.

    #1100136
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yet shmitta does end one’s status as an eved ivri resulting from theft.

    #1100137
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Being an Eved Ivri may come from theft (sometimes), but it has nothing *directly* to do with the repayment. You still have to repay the debt, even after Shmitah. V’heishiv Es Hagezeilah isn’t a Milveh.

    #1100138
    Joseph
    Participant

    If the thief was sold as an eved ivri half a year before shmitta, and shmitta freed him while his victim didn’t receive full repayment of his loss from the theft by the thief’s sale as an eved ivri, the thief is still mechuyiv to repay the remaining balance (i.e. theft value minus sale price as an eved ivri) even though beis din cannot enforce that?

    #1100139
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: I believe so. I’ll have to look it up again to be sure, but being sold is not in lieu of payment, it’s just a way to get the money. So if the money is still not there, he still owes a debt.

    #1100140
    Joseph
    Participant

    If that is the case, why doesn’t the Torah permit beis din to enforce his remaining debt, if it is still a valid debt post-shmitta?

    #1100142
    Joseph
    Participant

    Nu, did everyone get a pruzbul yet, or are you waiting for next year?

    #1100143
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: To answer your question, who says they don’t? If they can’t enforce it, it’s because they turned the Gezeilah into a Milveh.

    #1100144
    midwesterner
    Participant

    How many ways is the assumption wrong?

    Shmitta deals with chovos. Nothing to do with status of Eved Ivri. He goes free at Yovel, not Shmitta. The only chovos that are eliminated are those with collection pending. An eved who is sold to pay the debt, the debt is settled with the purchase money. There is no further collection. He then has to serve out the term of his avdus, which is 6 years, regardless of when in a shmitta cycle it falls. A loan with mashkon is exempted for this same reason. It is not collection as much as it is trading payment to get your collateral back.

    #1100145
    Joseph
    Participant

    How early can next year’s pruzbul be done – immediately after Rosh Hashana?

    #1100146
    Joseph
    Participant

    S’pose someone missed doing a pruzbul. Is he prohibited from asking, or even accepting if offered, moneys that were owed him? Is the borrower free as a bird to refuse to repay the debt to a lender without a pruzbul? Is the borrower entitled to demand the lender produce the pruzbul before he repays?

    #1100147
    Participant

    How early can next year’s pruzbul be done – immediately after Rosh Hashana?

    You can but there’s no point, it only covers existing debts and previous debts are already covered by this year’s pruzbul (if you made one).

    #1100148
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: These are Mishnayos. You should learn them.

    The lender can’t ask for payment. The borrower can try to pay. The lender has to say “Meshamet Ani”. The borrower can then say “Af Al Pi Kein” and it counts as a repayment, not a gift. And the Mishnah says that “Ruach Chachamim Noche” from someone who repays the debt that passed Shmitah.

    #1100149
    chochomgadol
    Member

    Money owed through “geneiva” is not a “halv’a”. Pruzbul was created so that people should not hold back from lendiing money before Shemitta. This obviously does not apply to something stolen.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.