Psak Halacha on Internet Access

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  • #878743
    Health
    Participant

    Loyal Jew -“Health, the analogy doesn’t hold. He can be mekabel to wear a seatbelt, to give up smoking. etc. He can even be mekabel to stop defying the Gedolim. But he can’t be mekabel to un-see what he saw on the internet.”

    So you’re saying a person can’t do Teshuva on Shmiras Eneyim? Do you have a Mekor for this? If not, you and unfortunately your offspring also, are Krum. I’m very happy I’m on the Net -who would want to be Meshadaich with people like you? What you think is a Chumra (that you can’t undo Shmiras Eneyim) is really a Krumra (I just made up a new word).

    #878745
    mms601
    Participant

    Many thousands of shidduchim were made on Facebook, the only problems was that the parties were already married.

    #878746
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Reading between the lines of many posting regarding the Asifa (in this thread, and others) one gets the sense that there was a message that was to be delivered and initial advertisements pointed to that agenda and message. As planning progressed more and more groups held the organizers “hostage” over various items and before anyone knew it, there was a new agenda with a new message.

    If we would have walked away from Har Sinai as befuddled and confused as when we waked away from Citi Field……..

    #878747
    AZ
    Participant

    Av Haben: No need. Rav Matisyahu himself spoke publicly since the asifa and DID not support the “psak” that was relayed at the asifa.

    #878748
    Chulent
    Member

    I heard that the Gedolim are currently working on the wording of a kol koreh against unfiltered internet. It is modeled on the kol koreh signed in the 1980’s against television. It is going to be signed by leading gedolim, rabbonim and roshei yeshivas from the litvish, chasidish and sefardic world in the United States, Eretz Yisroel and countries around the world.

    #878749
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    AZ

    Where do you have the information that Rav Matisyahu did not support the Psak

    #878750
    Chulent
    Member

    The psak is posted in BMG.

    #878752
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Since last week there is a prominent sign posted in Rav Lieff shlita’s shul (the Agudah where the Flatbush Asifa will take place) with the above Psak Halacha (with those two words in big bold letters) of, and signed by, Hagaon Haadir Posek Hador Ba’al Shevet Halevi HaRav Shmuel Wosner shlit”a.

    I was just there and saw no such sign. Perhaps it’s because I am a disgusting, miserable excuse for a human being and therefore items of kedusha (such as that sign) are invisible to me. But in any event, I saw no such sign — and I checked all the bulletin boards and walls.

    The Wolf

    #878753
    147
    Participant

    Since last week there is a prominent sign posted in Rav Lieff shlita’s shul (the Agudah where the Flatbush Asifa will take place)

    What time & Date? But most critically important:- ???ENGLISH????

    & most Critically important:- Can my grandmother, mother, wife, sister, daughter, niece come along & also attend?

    & of-course:- Cost for attending?

    #878754

    Loyal Jew -“Health, the analogy doesn’t hold. He can be mekabel to wear a seatbelt, to give up smoking. etc. He can even be mekabel to stop defying the Gedolim. But he can’t be mekabel to un-see what he saw on the internet.”

    Can he unsmoke the cigarettes and clean his lungs?

    Can he undrink the alcohol and restore the brain cells he killed with the alcohol?

    #878755
    AZ
    Participant

    zahavasdad: The directives issued to the Lakewood yeshiva were more lenient than the directive issued at the asifa.

    But have no fear.

    In today’s papers they re-issued the “psak” from Rav Wosner, with his signature, but go figure. The unpopular parts are not there.

    In fact it doesnt even clearly state a “issur” against having it ones home. Althougth it does discourage it.

    A far cry from the “psak” at the asifa that in internet in ones home even for busines even with proper protections is grounds for not being allowed in school

    it seems that cooler heads are starting to prevail and it seems like they provided Rav Wosner with more accurate information regargind the internet.

    #878756
    Chulent
    Member

    There is no reason to put psak in quotation marks. It is a real psak. Issued by a contemporary posek hador.

    #878757
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont belive for one second the Psak has be backtracked

    #878758

    My sons rebbe told them that it is assur for them to enter a house that has internet. I have thoughts that he is a decendant of the nachash.

    #878759
    AZ
    Participant

    Chulent:

    1. You clearly don’t agree follow what you yourself claim or you are simply a troll.

    2. If it was a real “psak” then why was it “adjusted” in the newspapers this week……

    Clearly it wasn’t definate “psak” Halacha despite what the scoreboard said (i don’t think to many people actually heard his words) perhaps it was a suggestion or i don’t know what.

    In the papers there’s clearly different language with Rav Wosners Shlit”a own signature.

    So your choice

    Trust the scoreboard operator

    Trust his own signature

    #878760
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    R. Gatesheader, by the egel, the slate wasn’t wiped totally clean. There was a stain that remained forever, even after tshuva, even after Moshe’s pleadings, and even Shevet Levi killed the 3000 direct perpetrators. So of course a bachur can be mekabel to stay off unfiltered internet and express regret for what he did. He should even do as the Rambam said and become fanatically anti-internet for a while. But the stain on his neshamah remains.

    #878761
    Chulent
    Member

    AZ: It is a real live binding psak. End quote. Newspapers are meaningless. No one gives them hechsheirim.

    P.S. I am using a filtered connection at my place of employment.

    P.P.S. Over 60,000 Yidden (rivivos alfei yisroel) heard the posek hador give his psak din live. Anyone else can hear an audio recording.

    #878762
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you want Chizuk from the asifa, it should be Watch what you say and do in public.

    With the emergence of smartphones with Video , everyone has a portable camera and video camera. Whatever you do or say can be photographed or taped.

    I have quoted many statements from the Asifa and people did not belive me, I told them if you dont believe me go watch the video on youtube.

    People seem to be trying to change the speech of Rav Wosner. You Can’t he said it , the proof is there.

    You can watch the video. I dont even think many of the organizers even understood this, and had they understood might have vetted the speakers a little better and explained to them that whatever they would do and say would be broadcast to a large audience than they ever could have imagined

    #878763
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @avhaben what i am saying is based on a speech he made before the asifah in bmg which implied no such thing. also you have to understand that the poresh min hatzibur thing is one of the most commonly quoted things in yeshivos – it was not meant literally.

    #878765

    So your choice

    Trust the scoreboard operator

    Trust his own signature

    Or listen to the recording. Why is that not one of your options?

    #878766
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Personally, I don’t believe the scoreboard operator or his signature in the newspaper. I like to hear it straight from his mouth. Since a lowly peon like me has no such access, I ask my shailos and receive my psakim from my own Rav. I hear what he has to say, if there are any ambiguities I ask for clarification. Psak via newspaper, bulletin boards and other impersonal methods are for me nothing more than a springboard to ask my own Rav.

    #878767
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But the stain on his neshamah remains.

    And guess what? That applies to *every* sin.

    I’ve done things that I regret my life. Things I regret very deeply. In those cases, I have long since apologized and the people involved have forgiven me many, many years ago. I have long done teshuva for those sins. And you know what? It still affects me to this day. I *still* think about the things I’ve done to them and feel guilty about it whenever it comes to mind. In other words, while the slate may (or may not) be clean in Heaven, *I* still feel it — because it means something to me all these years later.

    If you commit any sin — it doesn’t matter which one — eat treif, commit murder, wear sha’atenz, insult a fellow human being, steal, not hear the megillah on Purim — take your pick — if that mitzvah truly means enough to you, you may never truly get over it. Your soul may always be burdened with the guilt of what you’ve done — even if God Himself has wiped it clean off of His books.

    So, unless you’re a perfect human being who never sins, or unless sins mean so little to you that you can simply forget them, you’re argument regarding the internet is pointless — it applies to any and all sins.

    The Wolf

    #878768
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “seems like they provided Rav Wosner with more accurate information regargind the internet.”

    Different Posek, different shaila, but the same idea. I heard recently that an Avreich, a baal teshuva, approched R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita with the following shayla. His chevra pre baal teshuva days would get together and play basketball on shabbos. He missed the action and wanted to know if it was permitted to play “kadur sal” on shabbos. The Rav asked him to describe “kadur sal” and he told him 5 people joined as a team with the objective of putting the ball in the basket. R’ Chaim asked, is it not possible to fill the basket before shabbos? (I don’t repeat this story to c’v poke fun of one of our leading poskim, on the contrary, it highlights his greatness and how his entire life and being is torah) in other words, what was Rav Wosner told about the “internet” and how it could be used, and what was he asked prior to the asifa – to address the crowd, or issue a psak. Certainly, with more (or accurate) information his opinion on the matter could change.

    #878771
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Certainly, with more (or accurate) information his opinion on the matter could change.

    Hence the problem. Who is to say that the P’sak will not change yet again in another two weeks.

    #878772
    Health
    Participant

    Loyal Jew -“R. Gatesheader, by the egel, the slate wasn’t wiped totally clean. There was a stain that remained forever, even after tshuva, even after Moshe’s pleadings, and even Shevet Levi killed the 3000 direct perpetrators. So of course a bachur can be mekabel to stay off unfiltered internet and express regret for what he did. He should even do as the Rambam said and become fanatically anti-internet for a while. But the stain on his neshamah remains.”

    WolfishMusings

    The Wolf

    “But the stain on his neshamah remains.

    And guess what? That applies to *every* sin.”

    Wolf -you just fell into this guy’s Farfrumta Kruma trap.

    Ya see some people (Krum, of course and full of hate) use things like this Asifa to pretend they are Tzaddikim and others are Reshayim. While you are correct that every Aveira causes Timtum Halev, you missed what that guy said. He said that the Timtum remains even after Teshuva and he compares it to the Egel. Of course this he said without any proof. The truth is – Once a person does Teshuva – the Timtum Halev goes away from every Aveira, including Shmiras Eneyim.

    If this guy wasn’t such an Am Haaretz -he’d fall into the category of Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha.

    #878773
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf -you just fell into this guy’s Farfrumta Kruma trap.

    WADR, I disagree. I just took the opposite approach.

    His approach is “one (wrong) look at the internet and you’re damaged for life.”

    My rejoined to that is “maybe, but if so, then that applies for every aveirah. So don’t get so worked up over the internet since we *all* sin and therefore are *all* “damaged.”

    It’s simply a variation of the “if everyone’s special then no one is” line of thought.

    The Wolf

    #878774
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Health: I think he is correct, (not EVERYONE in disagreement is a Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha).

    Even if one did Teshuva, what he saw remains and lingers on in one’s very being. (Did you just ‘forget’ every improper sight you was yesterday, last week?) No, there’s no QUICK ZAP IT button.

    The famous story of how the Chofetz Chaim trembled at having an improperly clad woman near him. No, things like this are not so simple to be made away.

    I’m not following the whole back and forth, it seems like Loyal Jew is implying that things ingrained and ingested through one’s eyes are there to stay, one must take extra caution. Others here cared to disagree and say that it’s like any other aveira, ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????, tshuva will totally cleanse those sights and thoughts from one’s mind. Oh really?!? Get real! Yes, it can, after hard work, real hard work. Read up. There are organizations that deal with these issues. Lets put it mildly – ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE.

    #878775
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: Not commenting on anything in particular here, but I don’t think being an Am Ha’aretz saves one from being Megaleh Panim. It’s one thing to be wrong. It’s another to take whatever knowledge you know (be it little or much) and distort it.

    #878776
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – No, I understood what you were saying, but I don’t think you fully understood his remarks.

    #878777
    Health
    Participant

    ZK -“Health: I think he is correct, (not EVERYONE in disagreement is a Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha).

    Even if one did Teshuva, what he saw remains and lingers on in one’s very being. (Did you just ‘forget’ every improper sight you was yesterday, last week?) No, there’s no QUICK ZAP IT button.

    The famous story of how the Chofetz Chaim trembled at having an improperly clad woman near him. No, things like this are not so simple to be made away.

    I’m not following the whole back and forth, it seems like Loyal Jew is implying that things ingrained and ingested through one’s eyes are there to stay, one must take extra caution. Others here cared to disagree and say that it’s like any other aveira, ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????, tshuva will totally cleanse those sights and thoughts from one’s mind. Oh really?!? Get real! Yes, it can, after hard work, real hard work. Read up. There are organizations that deal with these issues. Lets put it mildly – ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE.”

    I’m not sure of your point – first you say he is correct -then you say it’s not that simple.

    My contention with his posts was that you can do Teshuva, not whether it was easy. He said it’s not wiped away, just like the Egel. This is Not correct. It’s not easy to Teshuva on many Aveiros. Do you think it’s easy to stop smoking? Many big Talmedei

    Chachomim can’t stop, even though it’s Ossur.

    Put things in perspective -you can do Teshuva on everything. And once you do Teshuva -nothing of the Aveira will remain. To say not like this without any proof is Not acc. to the Halacha.

    #878778
    Health
    Participant

    Sam – Perhaps, but this guy never learnt enough to know what the Din really is.

    #878779
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Here is how I disagree with the critics of my post. All of us here are hediyotos who cannot hand down psaks or make up dinim. But some of us turn statements that really are daas Torah into topics for hair splitting: how did he say it? who was with him on the stage when he said it? was it a psak or just a piece of advice? can I get around it by asking my rov? can I ignore it because I’m Sefardi (RZ, Chassidic, fill in the blank)? It seems like a reflexive pattern. In the debate over sefirah, for example, the ikar has become how to determine exactly what is and isn’t music. Remembering talmidei Rabbi Akiva is drowned out in the static. Here too the fact is that no rov, and kal vachomer no Gadol, wishes to see yidden going anywhere on the internet, filtered or not.

    #878780
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Here too the fact is that no rov, and kal vachomer no Gadol, wishes to see yidden going anywhere on the internet, filtered or not.”

    May I ask the obvious?

    #878781
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Hence the problem. Who is to say that the P’sak will not change yet again in another two weeks.”

    This is only a problem for someone whose actions are guided by posters on the wall, printed advertisements via a third party and second hand information about things a Rav may or may not have said. However, one who has a Rav who guides him has no such problem. The bigger problem, as I see it, (in the Litvishe world) is that very few people actually have a Rav. They learn in one place for high school, jump to someone elses beis medrash for a zman or two, go to E’Y for a year or two, go to BMG or elsewhere for a couple of years, then get married and settle into a community. So at the age of say 26, who really knows this person and can be a moreh derech? Certainly his Rav can pasken the black and white shaylos such as kosher or treif, or it is blood or it is not, or no you may not do that on shabbos or this is how to make an eruv chatzeros. Those questions that are more about hadracha can not be answered because the Rav really doesn’t know you as an individual, so, people have come to rely on cookie cutter style psakim that go up on the wall. Those who issue the “psak” are just hedging their bets and hoping to cover all bases. Even the “psak” issued in BMG that was published and reported on in Hamodia (perhaps other places, Hamodia is where I read it) reads more like general guidelines than an absolute psak.

    #878783
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It seems AZ might be correct.

    Before Shabbos the Relative who gave me the ticket to the Asifa called me (He is a rav is a major yeshiva)

    I had heard he wanted to speak to me through the grapevine and had gotten my number (I usually only see him at family simchas) and certainly he knew my interest in this topic.

    He did tell me that he saw a letter signed by Rav Wosner himself where he allowed internet WITH a filter and did not ban it entirely.

    His own opinion was that perhaps Rav Wosner was not told the whole story on the internet and probably never used it himself and did not see the other side (Like there are those whose incomes depend on it)

    #878784
    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: First you say that no one here is on the level to hand down a Psak, then you have the arrogance to presume to know what ever Rov and Gadol thinks. How your own post didn’t sound ridiculous even to you I have no idea.

    #878785
    Patri
    Member

    Yasher Koach Loyal Jew.

    #878786
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Seems to me that someone is talking to him/herself on this board

    #878787
    AZ
    Participant

    Zahavasdas:

    thank you

    Chulent: The alleged psak at the asifa allowed for internet at the place of work for Business purposes only. It’s a fair assumption that your posting on YWCR doesn’t facilitate your parnassah.

    As such i’m quite sure we will no longer be hearing from you.

    Adios

    (i guess Rav Matisyahu and others didn’t hear him as well as you did, or else don’t feel so bound by his psak. Tune in to next sunday’s asifa in flatbush. It will sing a different song. A tune that WILL be accepted by those who hear it. A tune that was heard by 150 Rabbonim the day after the asifa.

    What a shame it won’t be the same alfei rivvivos yisroel…)

    and now if i may qoute one of the organizers of the event

    “it was a disaster”

    I rest my case.

    Let’s move forward…

    #878788
    ohr chodesh
    Member

    I spoke to the Mashgiach. He holds the asifa was a tremendous and resounding success and a massive kiddush shem shamayim.

    #878789

    and now if i may qoute one of the organizers of the event

    “it was a disaster”

    I rest my case.

    It was not a disaster, b”H, not even close. Thousands of people have already installed filters (1200 customers cancelled their Verizon Mobile data service within a few days, as told to me by a local rov) and aside from the thousands the Ichud claims in the paper to have been assisted in installing a filter, many more thousands did so without help from the Ichud. For example, a friend of mine asked for advice in how to put in a filter. I was unable to help him because he needs a certain type of connection, so he called TAG, but most people can figure it out on their own ot with help from a friend.

    Your laughing in someone’s face because one NASI ad generated 1700 calls was not well thought out, IMO (I’ll assume that you meant it metaphorically and won’t repeat someone’s mussar shmuez to you). To sign up for the NASI project, one needs to contact NASI. To get a filter, or get rid of the internet altogether (which many have b”H done) one does not need to call TAG. 1700 is amazing, considering that many people don’t even need them!

    Two different local rabbonim have told me that the asifa was a major success (one called it a “smashing success”).

    The message is getting out there , properly, loud and clear. The fact that internet was made into such a b’dieved is a great thing. Even those who have it will exercise much more caution than had the asifa been about comparing J-net to K-9.

    May your case rest in peace.

    #878790
    Josh31
    Participant

    “In the debate over sefirah, for example, the ikar has become how to determine exactly what is and isn’t music.”

    For those in the “Loyal Jew” camp, no handling of metal utensils is allowed during the sefirah, and earplugs must be worn when going outside.

    #878791
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @DaasYochid ultimately the success or failure of the asifa will only be determined a couple of years down the line. I know many people who have had filters in the past who disabled or removed them for one very simple reason – they are really annoying to use. most of the people i know who had filters installed are the ones who didnt need the internet all that much anyway. an overwhelming majority do not have filters and i think that is unlikely to change.

    #878792
    Naysberg
    Member

    Jbaldy, the pessimistic POV you just expressed about internet filtering was expressed many years ago when the rabbonim banned television. They said few will listen.

    And look at the (lack of) place television has today in the homes of frum, ehrlich, families.

    #878793

    jbaldy22,

    Of course, I’m only referring to the reaction which I’ve seen to this point. I’m no navi, and certainly long term follow-up is necessary.

    I certainly hope that people who need internet will view the inconvenience of a filter as negligible compared to the danger of remaining without one. I also believe that as more filters become available, they will become less cumbersome.

    It’s not that easy for people to make time thrice a day for davening, yet many ehrliche Yidden do so. Hopefully limiting any access to the web to filtered usage will achieve the same status, and be considered a basic component of frum life.

    #878794
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “And look at the (lack of) place television has today in the homes of frum, ehrlich, families.”

    Who needs it unless you subscribe to cable. You can watch it all online.

    #878795
    Naysberg
    Member

    Which is, exactly, another reason why filters are incumbant upon any ehrliche yid, to block those shows online.

    #878796
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @DaasYochid first of all I appreciate the fact that you actually responded to my comments as opposed to the labeling that some other posters tend to do. The problem I’m referring to is not simply inconvenience. There is a well known study that was done on people who pirate music and they found that the main reason people pirated was not cost rather it was convenience. this is why itunes has been so successful. The reason why many people buy iphones is again because it is smooth and uncumbersome. There also have been many studies on how even changing a couple of seconds in a computers startup time had a disproportionately large affect on people. We are not talking about the same kind of annoyance – davening is difficult to do but it is not nearly as annoying as trying to use a smartphone where the touch screen doesnt work properly which i think is a more apt analogy. If there are real solutions created by the Jewish community with its multitude of needs in mind then maybe it is possible. However this has not been done that well in the past – the kosher phones in the US are a perfect example of a good idea which is poorly managed. It is highly unlikely that there will be many new ones created in the secular world based on the present attitude by tech companies.

    #878797

    jbaldy22,

    I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    Yes, I wished my internet connection worked seamlessly, and that I could get every kosher site I needed. But the fact that it doesn’t, doesn’t stop me from filtering, because I consider it a necessity.

    That’s my point.

    #878798
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Which is, exactly, another reason why filters are incumbant upon any ehrliche yid, to block those shows online.

    An ehrliche yid should know enough not to watch the shows without needing a filter.

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