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Another sensational article appeared today titled: “Beit Shemesh Avreich Sentenced to 3 Years in Prison for Spying for Iran”. Which, for the first time included the name of the “spy”.
First of all, by the wording of the judgement it is pretty clear that this fellow was no “spy”. He had no access to any classified information, or any information the Iranians couldn’t find by simply browsing Israeli media and public domain information [something they surely do, as all countries do in addition to genuine spying.] Apparently he was sent to do low level mischief like graffiti, propaganda flyers, vandalism, or maybe even less than that.
Which leads one to ask, what is Iran actually looking to accomplish with recruiting these petty ‘agents’ who don’t actually do anything meaningful and always get caught. [Because they have no training or encrypted communication gear or any of the things real spies use to avoid detection, so the whole thing is לכתחילה a joke.] The Iranian leaders may be ‘crazy’ on the ideological level, but their generals and “spy masters” aren’t completely stupid.
My guess is that the real objective of these ‘missions’ is simply to spread fear and mistrust in Israeli society. Something which is aided and abetted by making lots of noise about every such story. So, think for a second. Does this article and others like it actually HELP IRAN get what they want?
Then there is the Loshon Hara issue. Someone with the screen name “Supreme AI” wrote a long megillah explaining why there is a toeles and Pikuach Nefesh (no less!) need to publicize the name of the nebbech who got sucked into this narishkeit. If you are interested you can read it there. My questions on his מהלך are as follows:
Is there a Toeles or deterrence of any kind in publishing the name of the convict on an English website that primarily caters to Chutz La’aretz? [Sounds like a rather lame toeles.]
Is there any such Heter to do so for purpose of ‘deterrence’ to someone convicted by ‘Arkaos’? [As opposed to a Beis Din where there is at THEIR discretion.]
Does this person present any danger going forward that the tzibbur needs to be aware of? [Which would be the case for abusers etc., but definitely not for this fellow who we can be sure will never do this again.]
Did this person actually do anything that would brand him a bona-fide Moser? [He didn’t have access to anything remotely resembling classified information. As opposed to the IDF general who gambled online using information from a General Staff meeting and could have really endangered lives…]
Most importantly, you forgot that EVEN when saying Lashon Hara l’toeles, it is ASSUR to ALSO have ANY ulterior motive. Since everyone knows that the only real reason YWN included the name is to make the story ‘juicier’ and more click-worthy [and hence more profit i.e. 100% שלא לשמה], the Heter of Toeles doesn’t get started…
No, there’s no toeles. Yes, it absolutely is the issur gamur of loshon hora.
But it is good clickbait. And sells digital ads. So the almighty dollar kicks the Almighty G-d to the curb.
In fact, the arkois goyishe court with the illegitimate woman so-called “judge” has as much credibility as the Soviet People’s Court.
Explanation for the recruiting scheme is that it is an escalating game: first a person is asked to paint a message on a wall; then carry a bag to another place; then make a picture of a public person near his house … at some point, the agent understands that the “innocent” things he did might already take him to prison or at least damage his reputation, so he agrees to the next step … out of 10 such agent, one might move further.
You can see a possible societal impact, as you are saying, as it happens between Russia and Ukraine: both sides recruit or threaten people to go put government offices on fire and such – the damage is not big, but it affects the society.
Another article is saying that Shin Bet is worrying that charedim might be easier targets here because they might not know about such things, so go spread the word.
interesting question on Lashon Hara. It seems to be the practice of most countries to publicize court outcomes with rate exceptions – minors, state secrets.
These might be different from beis din rules, but these rules have some reasoning behind them – openness helps prevent abuses of the court in general.Similarly, courts that use juries who are amei haaretz are not following Sh’A, but the system again enables society check with their common sense against government abuses of power.
It is a valid question – should you try to move Israeli system closer to halachik here. What would happen if all court proceedings were publicized only when there is clear danger, like child abuse. Would you prohibit employers from doing background checks, or would these checks be done using a closed system? Similarly, with shidduchim. Local (charedi) Rosh Yeshiva advised me that “his only requirement for children shidduchim was that parents be honest in business”. I guess he trusted the shadchanim or maybe googled court cases himself … As it is, you call references, esp from Jewish school and it is “he is a great boy/girl” and you are listening for the tone of the voice if they are waiting for a hard question. Sometimes you ask to clarify the issue you found out, and the menahel becomes so relieved “oh, you know about it, so let me explain the details …..”. So, my intuition is that we err on the side of privacy more often than other way around.
I guess one if the questions is whether there is an issue of deterrence – if a person get a lenient punishment, would it change behavior of future criminals or idiots? And to what degree halakha takes deterrence into account.
In what world do you really believe that this is really Iran behind these “agents”? this could easily be the Zionist government as well as it could easily be completely fabricated from top to bottom.
So, I don’t think the argument should be “does this help Iran” as that just follows lockstep with the zionist propaganda that Iran is an enemy of the Jews, when rather they are an enemy of Israel (and the non-Jewish “West”).
The rest of your post is generally on point.
sounds like someguy also got swindled by persians, so he now needs to shift the blame.
@yaakov-yosef-a
” this could easily be the Zionist government as well as it could easily be completely fabricated from top to bottom”
First of all, he admitted to all charges and described exactly what he did. Second of all I don’t see you saying that when they arrest Chilonim?correct me if I’m wrong but i think Israel has officially become a stratocracy.
YYA> … They also don’t have the slightest inkling how to hide their tracks,
You read this in spy novels. The game is a little different now. Internet allows cheap access to multitudes of not very smart people. You can talk them, or threaten, into lots of silly things. Posting inflammatory posters (maybe pro and against draft, or anything else); making pictures of government offices or officials; putting something on fire. This is happening all over the world. If you live your life erliche, you should not have problems. When someone contacts you and ask for some silly information, simply do not reply.
YYA> I was questioning the toeles, and even the Halachic permissibility, of posting the name here on YWN or similar forums.
I agree here. Probably, whatever need there is to publicize is achieved by the court publishing the name, so anyone can find the information already just googling for the name. Some write that one of the concerns behind lashon hara prohibition is a need for society to presume and encourage the idea that normative behavior is to be yashar. If we constantly talk about negatives, then you get the attitude of “everyone does it”. In this aspect, it is interesting that you and several others showed concern for this misguided individual, but at the same time many post negatively-framed opinions about people from other groups of Jews, without slight concern for LH. I am sure people will bring up explanations why those groups are “really bad”, but the social consequences are the same – if everyone does it, I can do something too … You see sometimes posts like – they let Arabs do that ….
YYA> business owner from releasing disparaging information
are you saying that newspapers nogea bdavar? Well, their “business” is to provide information. But if you are quoting Chofetz Chaim, he was considering working for church preferably to selling newspapers anyway!
> do or don’t apply in the context of social media such as the “Coffee Room”,
this is not new. There were anonymous writings throughout history, including Jewish… You probably want to analyze it through separate damages to (1) target (2) speaker (3) audience.
1: target. First idea that there is no damage as nobody knows you … I am thinking if someone calls AAQ an idiot or an ignoramus, I am not really affected as I trusting more opinions I hear in person. Except they might not say it to my face. Some posters might be affected though. It is often clear from writing when a person is sensitive, and you probably want to take that into account. Most importantly, and that is what I was talking about, often here people really write about groups. So, when I write about “charedim”, halochos related to groups of people apply.
2. the speaker is definitely affected by the shmutz he is saying. Anonymity makes it worse, as people talk the way they would not in person.
3. audience is also affected. Again, may be worse due to wide dissemination. And also time. someone can read this ten years later.
> is deliberately trying to maintain an endless state of [at least low simmer] war and fear in order to strengthen his political position.
this is an example of LK we are discussing. In US, politicians are almost exempt from libel laws in favor of free expression. Do we have a similar exemption for Jewish public figures, whether they are tzadikkim or not? Bava, in Bava Basra, is very careful not to criticize a king, presumably mostly out of fear, but maybe not also. Maybe if we ascribe good intentions to politicians, they’ll have to behave accordingly?
I seem to remember that there is no issur lashon hara on something which is anyway clear public knowledge
thats not referring to the ‘heter’ of apei tlata
might be wrong here …
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.was referring to another heter — not apei tlata …
.YYA> ‘cursing’ a king, not ‘criticizing’.
the difference is not that big given how people “criticize”.years ago, I actually got a psak to behave with respect towards pretty wicked (literally, not metaphorically is it is often used) political Jews. So wicked that I am, like Baba b Buta, scared to say their names even anonymously. When I responded – how can I show respect to such a vile person, the (charedi) Rav said “just show respect to his position”
I understand your attitudes towards your PM. Most other people in Israel have their own reasons to not like him – except when they need him… My attitude towards Bibi is biased by an early observation. In the mid 90s when he was dealing with difficult Clinton-time political situation, I happened to read his father’s book on Abarbanel. The main thesis of the book seems to be that despite all his involvement with the government, Abarbanel somehow missed that moment when expulsion edict was promulgated. He tried everything he could to fight back, but failed. Seems like a life of achievements ended with a failure at the most important moment. But that was not the end of the story – Abarbanel switched to supporting the exiles in places where they settled, giving them nechama and an attitude on how to look to rebuild in the future. It struck me at that moment how this was prescient to what the author’s son was dealing with in Israeli politics. I shared this observation with several people and they found it reasonable. That was before Bibi had to do with several other crises over these years …
> Wishful thinking?
yes, but better than an alternative. One of the motivations for LH is said to be an indirect way to boost own self-esteem. It is silly to always claim how smart you, or your group, are – but you can achieve the same relative boost by tearing others down.Chofetz Chaim was against people reading or selling newspapers – that were distributing things that were, or were becoming, publicly known at that point. I don’t think he gave reshus to distribute those.
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