February 27, 2017 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #619354
The little I knowParticipant
As Purim nears, there is a reawakening of the mitzvah of tzedokoh. However, this time of the year, it tends to enter with extremes. As wonderful as this is, it comes with problems. Perhaps it is still early enough to open discussion so that some of the negatives can be resolved in time.
There are countless causes that are worthy of tzedokoh dollars. It is not about considering yeshivos better or less than poverty, medical expenses, etc. Actually, outside of giving matanos lo’evyonim, the mitzvah of tzedokoh is the same on Purim as it is on any other day on the calendar. The halacha of ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?? is not an invitation to the public to collect. It is an invitation to give.
But it is traditional that yeshivos mobilize their talmidim to use the day to schnorr for them. It is debatable whether this is proper chinuch, and commenters might weigh in on that. But if they will be doing this, there are ways to fulfill the mission that are okay, and others that are not. I watched boys below bar mitzvah (up to age 12) panhandling during kriyas hamegillah. Others fearlessly approach during kriyas shema or shmoneh esrei. While this is quite disturbing, I always wondered whether giving these kids their marching orders, with the competitive spirit to achieve greater dollar amounts, was accompanied by some instructions how to collect. Are they guided to daven themselves? Are they told to be observant to not disturb mispallelim during various parts of tefiloh?
Sometimes, this competitive thing drives kids to pressure people. It is not uncommon to give, and the youngster insist that the donation be increased. This chutzpah is not excusable. Does anyone guide these kids to exercise proper midos in the process?
There are rabbonim who forbid any collection inside the actual beis hamedrash altogether. I watched one Rav had off money to a gabbai so that he does not get disturbed during davening. The entire collecting thing is problematic, as it becomes disturbing during tefiloh. But even if we push to be more tolerant, there are limits that are trashed by children who are not taught properly on how to collect tzedokoh.
This topic has been raised almost every year. But it does not get better. Is there a way to make tzedokoh the beautiful and precious mitzvah that it really is?February 28, 2017 12:34 am at 12:34 am #1219860
On Purim you’re supposed to give tzedakah to anyone that asks, without investigation.
It is absolutely proper chinuch for yeshivas to train talmidim to engage in the humongous mitzvah of collecting tzedakah. Some Yeshivas have this chinuch all year, with the talmidim (from age 7 through beis medrash) collecting tzedakah year-round, not just on Purim. Tremendous kudos to them and their lucky talmidim.February 28, 2017 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1219861
The little I knowParticipant
You seem to have missed the point of the post. Here is my response:
You wrote: “On Purim you’re supposed to give tzedakah to anyone that asks, without investigation.” Nothing I wrote in the post was negating anything about giving. The issue was the collecting that has gone haywire. I was also not addressing investigating. I believe that most of the yeshivos represented are legitimate and worthy mosdos.
You wrote: “It is absolutely proper chinuch for yeshivas to train talmidim to engage in the humongous mitzvah of collecting tzedakah.” I checked the ???? ????? a few times. I did not notice a single one that includes collecting tzedokoh as a ???? at all. Giving, yes. Taking, no. I do not challenge that facilitating the tzedokoh reaching its target is a positive thing. But the “humongous mitzvah”? Not listed in the ???”?. And it is debatable, as I suggested in the OP, whether this is good chinuch. Additionally, the motive behind sending the children to collect is not about their chinuch – it is about the money being brought into the office of the yeshiva. Let’s be honest.
And since we’re looking at the mitzvah of chinuch, would it not be prudent to teach talmidim to be respectful of someone’s tefiloh by not disturbing him in the middle of it? Later, these same “lucky” talmidim will appear in shul, and spend their time chattering away, as davening will not be a precious gift that deserves respect. Are we teaching our children that money is everything? It seems to be more important than tefiloh.February 28, 2017 3:43 am at 3:43 am #1219862
TLIK: Who is talking about taking tzedakah for oneself. These bochorim are not collecting tzedakah for themselves. They are collecting tzedakah for *others* that need tzedakah.
That is inarguably a humongous mitzvah. And something every child would do well being mechanech on.
And the motive is primarily chinuch. I’ve seen many times kids and young adults collecting tzedakah for tzedakah worthy individuals and organizations *other* than their own yeshiva. When I was a child P’eylim came every year and gave out pushkas and booklets to all the children (aged 7 years old through beis medrash) in the yeshiva to collect tzedaka for them. And they raised large sums. And the money did not go to our Yeshiva, it went to Eretz HaKodesh. And it wasn’t on Purim time.February 28, 2017 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1219863
” And since we’re looking at the mitzvah of chinuch, would it not be prudent to teach talmidim to be respectful of someone’s tefiloh by not disturbing him in the middle of it? “
NO it would not be prudent they teach in yeshiva to disturb as much davening as possible…
Also they teach especially when collecting to be as annoying as possible so the people that don’t want to give have a good excuse…February 28, 2017 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1219864
ans what about those who collect on Purim night ringing door bells at 1:00 AM?February 28, 2017 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1219865
The little I know, I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I read these threads and imagine those boys as my grandchildren it only reinforces my gratitude for living in a Torah community that teaches exactly what you speak of (and we don’t witness so many of such things complained about here, B”H) and pushing for shidduchim who understand the detriment to the chinuch of children growing up in environments with these (and other) types of distortions.
Whether or not Joseph wants to see the light – all the fresh milk in the world will not make the spoonful of sour milk added stay fresh. sorry.February 28, 2017 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1219868
the problem isnt the Tzdekah, its the driving around in a limosine and the boys are usually Drunk.
It is not kavod for the yeshiva to send a bunch of Drunk Talmidim to collect TzdekahMarch 1, 2017 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1219870
Joseph & BMYer – shkoyach for being melamed zchus on Am Yisrael, especially the tzadikim who are mechanech their talmidim to collect tzedaka – which is in fact a tremendous Mitzvah, for which one attains tremendous schar.
The GRA’s wife and her friend made a deal that whichever one was nifter first would come back in a dream and tell the other one what Olam Haba was like. After one was nifter, she came back to the other in a dream as promised. She told her that she can’t describe Olam HaEmes to her, but she can tell her one thing: The two of them used to collect tzedaka together and one day when they were out, one of them saw a certain rich man and pointed him out to the other.
They both went over and collected the money from him. However, since she (the nifteres) had been the one to point him out to her friend, there was no comparison between her olam haba and her friend’s olama Haba. The schar for the simple act of lifting her hand to point out the rich man was so great that it made he
<<ZAP>>March 1, 2017 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1219871
cute. in your zrizus to put me down you seem to have mistaken arguing for being melamed zchus. And bmyer wasn’t addressing the topic at all, he was sarcastically pointing out that TLIK’s statement was somewhat silly, in a sense. So really TLIK had some serious heartfelt concerns that could have been addressed instead of cheering on the people who put him down for it. And argued points he wasn’t even making to boot. But thanks for your ongoing effort to keep me isolated. it hasn’t gone unnoticed.March 1, 2017 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1219872
Bmyer is being melamed zchus?
I believe the word is SARCASM.
Went right over your head did it?March 1, 2017 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1219873
syag: LU got EXACTLY what I meant. Boys will be boys. The fact that they act a certain way does not mean their rabbeim / yeshivos told them to do so (this may come as a shock to you…). Maybe yeshivos should REITERATE to be more respectful but we’re talking about children they’re not mechuyav in mitzvos for a reason. This may also come as a shock to you but children sometimes act chutzpadik in yeshiva also! should we shut down yeshivos? NO we are mechanech them so that they’ll become the nachas to klal yisroel that we know they could be.
There are A LOT of adults that do not have proper decorum in shul maybe we should start with them and it might (probably will) have an impact on the children…March 1, 2017 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1219874
you definitely got the wrong address for your response. nothing i said rebuts that children will be children in their behavior… but what’s your excuse?March 1, 2017 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1219876
Joseph – why not send your sour grapes to the wine thread…March 1, 2017 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1219877
Because I’ve donated them to a children’s charity.March 1, 2017 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1219878
😛March 1, 2017 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1219879
Lilmod, well stated par excellence.March 1, 2017 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1219880
Somewhat transparent but I’ll let it go…March 1, 2017 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1219881
Um.. actually, it has been extremely transparent, since day one.March 1, 2017 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1219882
Mod-29, how did you know that Joseph had sour grapes from this thread?
I didn’t read the sourness.
But I am also not a wine nor experienced CR connoisseur.
So I am guessing you have a better gauge on the hints and flavors here. While I have novices for senses and tastebuds.
Btw.. Do we really stomp on sour grapes to make wine? I thought that only happened back in the day and I Love Lucy.
Thank youMarch 1, 2017 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1219883
Avram in MDParticipant
Boys will be boys.
Indeed. Which is why, despite the fact that making an effort to collect tzedaka for someone needy is a tremendously meritorious act (and despite the straw man you and Joseph are putting forth, I doubt The little I know, Syag Lchochma, et al. disagree with that at all), it’s probably not a good idea to have unsupervised boys go into a shul or beis medrash during davening. And to be very clear: I’m not even implying that any organization is encouraging boys to go into shuls. But if it’s a known problem, the organizations leading the tzedaka fund have an obligation to properly instruct the boys where not to go.
The fact that they act a certain way does not mean their rabbeim / yeshivos told them to do so (this may come as a shock to you…).
Certainly not, but fairly or unfairly so, the behavior of children while “on duty” for an institution can result in a favorable or unfavorable impression of the institution. Therefore, the boys should be instructed and supervised.
And why the parenthetical snark?
Maybe yeshivos should REITERATE to be more respectful
It seems like you agree with the OP here.
but we’re talking about children they’re not mechuyav in mitzvos for a reason.
That does not mean we turn the other way if a child does something wrong.March 1, 2017 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1219884
Avram in MDParticipant
So it was Friday and we hadn’t made any challos yet, so I sent my kid to the bakery with some money to get challos for us. A little while later, the phone rings, and it’s the bakery. They say my kid cut to the front of the line, pushing an old lady in the process, was loud, and treated the cashier disrespectfully. I lectured them about how important the mitzva of kibbud av v’eim was, and how much merit my dear darling got for going out and bringing challos home to his family.
Now, everything I said in my lecture was true, but did I still miss the point?March 1, 2017 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1219885
thank you avram
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