October 11, 2017 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1380184
I’m not sure I will find much support here, but here goes.
So walking around the bima in a packed shul doesn’t seem to work well. People keep trying to make bigger circles but all this seems to do is have people standing and staring at each other in a bigger circle.
In a circle if one person stops moving nobody moves, There are only two ways that can get a tight circle of people to move. either someone leads the crowd shouting ”
” Everybody all together, right leg, LEft leg, Right leg…” OR gentle nudging of the person in front of you.
But many people get very uptight about this. It doesnt have to be shoving no need to poke with the lulav but without nudging (or a conductor directing everyone) the circle doesnt seem to move.
(Now obviously doing hakafos during hoshanos isnt a deoraysah nor even derababon so it isnt the biggest deal but presumably the people trying to do the hakafos want to do the hakafos)October 11, 2017 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1380208
You have to know how to nudge without upsetting people. If the guy in front of you becomes stationary, very very slightly bumping into him, as if you were simply continuing to walk — as expected, since the circle should be continuously moving — should not set off any fire bells.
If the shul is big enough, you can make multiple rings of circles. If the shul is not very big, those walking in a circle directly around the Bima slows down the other circle(s), and so usually such a circle (or even individuals) directly around the Bima should not be occurring in a non-large shul.October 11, 2017 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1380220
Turn around and follow the minhag of the Contrarianner Rebbe and do the hakofos counterclockwise…will immediately force a decision by those formerly behind you and now unquestionably obstructing yidden from their efforts to complete their hakofos. Alternatively, you can have one of your chevrah walk to the side and bang on the bimah shouting that the Kiddush club will be starting in 5 minutes in the sukkah. That should quickly clear out sufficient room for hakofos in whatever direction you wish to move. A gutten moed.October 11, 2017 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1380225
Weave in and out of rows to stretch out the “circle”October 11, 2017 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1380230
I dont understand how your first suggestion would help.
Tried your second suggestion. But my chevra is to Heimish for that, completing Hakafos is one of the Ikurei of ovado .
A Gut YOM TOV to you (bei unz zugt men nisht “Agutten Moed”) and Ah gutten Kvittel
Streched circle still doesnt work. Inevtibly SOMBODY stops to turn his page fix his Tallis pick up a dropped Esrog etc. Once someone stops the peron begnd stops etc etc until the whole circle grinds to a halt.
I was worried you’d be the only one to agree. 🙂
Though even gentle nudging got this one fellow who was spacing out really excitedOctober 11, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1380239
ubiq, how’d you (gently) nudge him?October 11, 2017 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1380243
If the guy is quickly fixing his Talis, turning his page or picking up a fallen Esrog, that is a reasonable delay. What else is he expected to do — continue walking while leaving his Esrog on the floor, his Machzor on the wrong page or his Talis falling half off??October 11, 2017 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1380246
Any plan that includes intrusion of others is not on the table.October 11, 2017 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1380292
“If the guy is quickly fixing his Talis, turning his page or picking up a fallen Esrog, that is a reasonable delay”
Of course it is! But how do we get the circle moving again?
” ubiq, how’d you (gently) nudge him?”
I very very slightly bumped into him, as if i was simply continuing to walk .
“Any plan that includes intrusion of others is not on the table.”
Any other suggestions?
I don’t see another option. When a person goes to hakafos he should expect that sweaty people will try take his hand. That’s what happens at hakafos it isn’t “intruding on others”
During hoshanos if we want the circle to move (which is why people join presumably) without gentle nudging (or a conductor) it doesn’t work.
An exception is the chazan who always pushes (in the shuls I’ve been to) though people don’t seem go mind. They often do turn around in a huff though calm down when they see it’s the chazan, this really perplexas me.October 11, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1380294
This should be klal yisroels biggest problem this year.October 14, 2017 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1380390
Nu, ubiq, did you find it necessary to shove anyone over again on Simchas Torah, in order to keep the hakafos moving smoothly? 😉October 14, 2017 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1380377
Why don’t you just daven at a shule with less people, or at an earlier minyan?October 14, 2017 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1380438
Because it is a bigger inyan to daven in a larger minyan.October 14, 2017 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1380464
“Nu, ubiq, did you find it necessary to shove anyone over again on Simchas Torah, in order to keep the hakafos moving smoothly?”
with hakafos people had no problem pulling the people behind them nudging the people in front of them.nobody seemed to mind the “intrusion of others” The hakofos moved quite smoothly, thoug it wa a different crowd than where I spend sukkos
“or at an earlier minyan”
This was the earlier minyan, Im not sure why you thought that would be better.October 15, 2017 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1380601
“or at an earlier minyan”
This was the earlier minyan, Im not sure why you thought that would be better.
I find that, generally, the earlier the minyan, the less people will be there. Therefore, there will be less (or even no) shoving.
Because it is a bigger inyan to daven in a larger minyan.
That’s nice, you made a little poem there. I still pick more comfort and less people. In addition, I get home earlier, which means I’m around to help the wife more, which increases shalom bayit.October 15, 2017 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1380629
Why would you pick comfort over better tefila?? A bigger minyan means you’re tefilos are more likely to be accepted.October 15, 2017 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1380633
“I find that, generally, the earlier the minyan, the less people will be there. Therefore, there will be less (or even no) shoving.”
I’m not talking about “shoving” I am talking about nudging. As Joseph so excellently described ” very very slightly bumping into him, as if you were simply continuing to walk ”
Also Ive found the opposite the earlier balabatish minyan of those headed to work were much more averse to the slightest contact as opposed to the later minyan which while not completely functioning well, still got around better. (of course this was on different days)October 15, 2017 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1380640
“Why would you pick comfort over better tefila?? A bigger minyan means you’re tefilos are more likely to be accepted.”
What if the crowded, uncomfortable conditions reduce the kavanah of the attendees? Doesn’t that mean that the tefilos are less likely to be accepted?October 15, 2017 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1380642
“A bigger minyan means you’re tefilos are more likely to be accepted.'”
Yup joe….a core inyan of yiddeshkeit is that “bigger is always better”….the mega car dealer flying a 30×40 ft flag along the interstate is obviously a bigger patriot the the poor shlump who has a small flag at the side of his trailer selling used cars along a country road 1/2 mile away. Bigger minyanim are better minyanim and the Ebeshter will “hear” their supplications without any other consideration as to the constituents of the minyan, their own personal hashkafah or the kavanah with which they daven…..Your Trumpian view of yiddishkeit is everything must be HUUUUGE!!!October 15, 2017 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1380862
Leave it to GH to show ignorance of the Halacha of ברוב עם הדרת מלך.October 16, 2017 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1381564
Avram in MDParticipant
If a guy gets bent out of shape due to gentle and possibly accidental contact during hoshanos, then he’s a drama maker. Drama can only be defeated by bigger drama. Yell “AYIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!” and smack him on the head with your lulav. That’ll fix everything; i.e., you will no longer be encumbered by that particular minyan.
🙂October 16, 2017 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1381601
The minyan is not too big, but the shul is too small.
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